Does Christian Nationalism help society? New Evangelicals vs Kenton Little

All right, let's count it down Well, hello, hello, welcome to the special live stream everyone

I was just giving a little time to jump on there My name is Greg Moore host Edmund walking podcast we got a special Monday night live stream for you with Tim Whitaker from the

New Evangelicals And it took me a minute to find his handle because I kept typing in new evangelicals and it's new evangelicals

On And Kenton little how you brothers doing? All right, so we're starting off this live stream

Perfect. I've already got hate from both people on both sides of this issue going Why are you talking to either one of those guys?

So I think we're we're doing well You know, but we want to have a discussion on Christian nationalism.

I actually stumbled across an interaction you two had on X and I think it was on the new event evangelicals page or maybe it was the other way around correct me if I'm wrong and I saw

Kenton you respond to something and then Tim respond to something and then I think

Kenton or one of you said or Tim I just said hey, why don't we just discuss this? So I got in the DMS and I said, why don't we talk about it?

And you guys both said yeah, let's do it And you know, that's something kind of rare On social media when people kind of have opposing views boy.

Do we like to be cowboy keyboard keyboard cowboys? Excuse me instead of actually just talking about it and going.

Okay, we disagree. Let's figure it out So that's where we are. So tonight we're gonna be talking about does

Christian nationalism Actually help society and to do that We kind of have a framework of what that definition is

Which we kind of laughed about that in the in the DMS of going well Most people can't even we've got 20 different ways to define it.

So the working definition We're gonna be working with tonight and it might fluctuate a little bit and as we have a discussion

Disagree about this or pull this out and say no I think it's this or or whatever that is is this

Christian nationalism is a cultural framework that Idealizes and advocates for a fusion of a conservative

Protestant Christianity with civil life It holds that this version of Christianity should be the principle and undisputed cultural framework in any particular nation

But I'm gathering we're going to be talking about the United States here most tonight and that that government should vigorously preserve that Christian framework

So for you listening or watching or viewing that's kind of the framework.

We're going to work with in the definition We're going to kind of introduce each of our guests

Then we're going to kind of give them like an informal opening statement where they stand on Christian nationalism and then we're just going to get into discussion maybe ask questions back and forth and then at the end of the hour if You have a question that you would like Tim or Kenton to answer throw it in the chat

I'll be monitoring those and then we'll do a little question and answer at the end and see how it goes

Does that sound good guys? Sounds great. I'm in Cool, so let's throw it over to Tim first Can you just give us a little couple minute origin story of Tim Whitaker?

Who are you? What are you all about and Let the people know yeah, my name is

Tim Whitaker. I grew up homeschooled. I grew up in a very John MacArthur Church very

Calvinist in in origins believed a lot of my whole life I mean I feel like if you haven't listened to the

Paul Washer sermon where he Yells at the youth group kids like what are you doing with yourself? You know, so that's how I grew up and fully believed it very much today still a

Christian despite what many detractors think but I since have Renegotiated my faith and what it means to follow

Jesus as closely as possible. But yeah, my background is Evangelical fundamentalism.

I'm a product of it. I inhaled the theology read the books You know, that's where I come from and I started the

New Evangelicals in December of 2020 Just asking questions about my faith after being concerned about the direction of where it was heading

Turns out I wasn't the only one and we grew very quickly and now we're a nonprofit organization That helps people find a better path forward in their faith away from Evangelical fundamentalism, etc.

So that's what I do now yeah, so clearly there is whatever it is that you're out there talking about there are a lot of other people either feeling the same way or or they know that you're bringing in some type of value because both your social media accounts your website the

Nonprofit has all been growing by leaps and bounds in the last four years. So Yeah, very interested to see that Kenton I always want to keep calling you

Ken gotta make sure I put the 10 on there You can't didn't give us a little bit about you. What are you all about? Where you from?

How'd you grow up stuff like that? Yeah, it's an odd name. My name is Kenton. I'm over here in Houston.

I also grew up homeschooled I also grew up in a very fundamentalist background nice Look at that what's in common look at us in the in the

IFB Denomination if y 'all are familiar with that Recently over the past two years or so My theology is also greatly evolved into something that is quite a bit different Now my theology is more akin to what what

Tim grew up with a little bit more Reformed than than John MacArthur would be but I would call myself a reformed

Baptist I know some people don't like that that term, but I would call myself a reformed Baptist and my my theological position would be

I'm a Calvinist I hold to reformed eschatology and that kind of defines how

I how I approach this issue as well But as for me, I I have a small

YouTube channel that I'm not very active on I'm planning on Upping that and upping the activity next year.

So if you want to follow me there, it's monarch ministries and you can keep an eye on that Awesome.

So this is crazy. We've got three Homeschoolers in the chat tonight and I'm actually homeschooling my three children right now

And I'm old enough to where they would send social services to our door And hey, why isn't your kid in school? And I don't know if I can one -up either one of you because Fundamental Baptist and John MacArthur are pretty conservative

But we even did Bill Gothard a TIA for Wow Family said that's too far for us

Our church touched the growing kids God's Way curriculum My parents are like even for us.

It's a little too strict It's here's the thing the older you get the more you start to see patterns in society you start to see pendulum swings and that was a pendulum swing of the 80s and early 90s to to cultural reform and I think

We're in this isn't totally on the subject, but I think Christian nationalism is Nationalism is part of kind of a pendulum swing not that I'm planting any ideas there or anything

But that's just kind of how I see it. Maybe we'll get into it later. But alright cool great introductions We know a little bit more about you guys

Let's go back to Tim and Tim. Why don't you give us you can take up to 10 minutes if you don't need it

That's fine We'll do the same for Kenton but give us kind of your stance your view your beliefs on Christian nationalism as a whole and then

Maybe try to answer that question Does it benefit society at all? Sure.

Yeah, I have a few like just notes I'll read off of just to kind of get my initial thoughts out there that we can discuss I also want to just be clear to people.

I'm not an academic. I have no college degree This is not someone who comes from that world

On my end, so I'm not trying to pretend that I'm someone that I'm not I just do my best like I'm sure all of us do to read and study and understand things as best as we can

And also on a side note It could be a good discussion later on in life to have a one around deconstruction what it is and what it isn't

Since all of us have similar origin stories that went in very different directions That's a very interesting phenomena that I picked up on over time.

So, okay So the question tonight though is does Christian nationalism help society

It's not is it biblical or if there's a theological argument for it? Okay that that isn't the conversation tonight

I mean, I'm gonna imagine that Kenton will probably using a lot of Bible verses to justify why

Christian nationalism is biblical and therefore good For society, but even if it was biblical, I don't think it is to be which by the way to be clear

I don't think that it is but let's just say it was that doesn't mean it's automatically good I mean, I don't think slavery for example is a good thing despite the

Apostle Paul telling slaves to obey their masters And that was a very common proof text used by American slaveholders to justify why owning slaves was biblical

So just because something is in the Bible doesn't automatically make it good But again to be clear the argument is not is it biblical or theological it is does it help society?

We ready to find the term Christian nationalism, which by the way the foundation of that definition comes from Sociologist Andrew Whitehead who was one of the leading voices and scholars on Christian nationalism

So there is empirical data that fuels that definition. You can look up his work I'm not just pulling it out of out of my hat

Kenton tweaked it a little bit, but the general gist is the same so To be clear a couple things here.

My answer to does Christian nationalism help society is no It does not overall it helps a particular set or sect of society

Perhaps mostly I would argue conservative white people and minorities who would assimilate into the world view

But everyone else is usually targeted by Christian nationalism for one reason or another and to be clear too.

I did have a definition Of society here. Where is it?

It's defined as the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community

So it is a pretty broad definition tonight So just a couple pieces of evidence here of why I think Christian nationalism is not good for society

Or doesn't help society first off We can look at some individuals who talk about Christian nationalism

Stephen Wolf For example, the author of the case for Christian nationalism said that under Christian nationalism blasphemy laws are enforced and that we should throw atheists in jail so it's certainly not good for the atheists in our society to be under the rule of Christian nationalism because they'd be thrown in jail if Stephen Wolf got his way

Joel Webbin says that every form of contraceptives should be ripped off the shelves of CBS So it doesn't help people who want or maybe even need contraceptives for other health reasons besides using them as birth control

And by the way, Joel Webbin in particular also agreed with a Confederate apologist on his show that most of the abolitionists will be in hell

Which I think is telling about how Joel and many Christian nationalists, especially in that sect view slavery and racism

Which again does not benefit society at all. It actually only harms many in our society

So you might argue that I'm just pulling, you know random arbitrary examples of two men, you know who hold no power

But we do have data on how Christian nationalists view all kinds of topics For example, 80 % of Christian nationalists don't believe in living in a society where other people are allowed to practice their religion

So for the people currently in our society right now who are not conservative Christians Christian nationalism does not help them at all.

It's actually very bad news for them Again, I go back to what Stephen Wolf said about throwing atheists in jail I know for example,

Doug Wilson wants to put Jesus Christ as Lord in our Constitution Which again does not help at all other people in our society who would hold to no such belief 40 % of Christian nationalists believe that things have gotten so bad that true

American Patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country four out of ten And again, I hope we all agree on this call and this chat that a violence is not good in any form

That does not help the country or benefit society, so I'm not gonna you know, take all ten minutes

I really want to get into more of discussion But there's plenty of reasons why I believe that Christian nationalism as it's defined does not actually help society

It might help certain people in this society who would adhere to its views But everyone else is probably seen as an enemy of said

Christian nationalism And therefore if Christian nationalism gets its way enemies of the state and such that does not benefit society

Okay, thank you Kenton would you like to kind of give your opening statement same thing kind of where you land on Christian nationalism?

how you came to that conclusion and then Does and I'm assuming you're taking the other side of this does

Christian nationalism benefit society? Yeah, so thank you first of all

I want to say this whole conversation came together because I replied to a Skater a video that you put out

Tim where you talked about evangelizing Christian nationalists And I said Tim I will DM you my address if you come in evangelize me

So what I want to say is I want to reiterate that invitation if you're ever in text there in Houston next time

Please hit me up and I will invite you over to my house and I will cook you a steak dinner. I'm in awesome.

So We're talking about Christian nationalism today and we're talking about the subject. Does it help society?

Does Christian nationalism help society and We've already been given a definition of that what

I want to frame is that Christian nationalism is the idea a more simplified definition that Christian nationalism is the idea that the nation's ought to base their laws and their customs on what

God has revealed in his word and This comes from this the the foundation for this idea is based on what

Jesus said before he ascended into heaven His final words the Great Commission the words of our

Lord, right? If all of us are professing Christians, we should all affirm what Jesus has commanded us his final commandment before he ascends into heaven

Matthew chapter 28 all authority on in heaven and on earth has been given to me go therefore and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the

Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and behold.

I am with you always to the end of the age so the Great Commission Provides us the foundation for Christian nationalism what it is is that Jesus is making the claim that all authority on earth has been given to him and because of his authority because the earth belongs to him his disciples should go and The the language that he uses is make disciples of the nations

Baptize the nations and teach the nations to observe all that God has commanded all that Christ is commanded.

So If Christ's commandment is that we should make disciples of the nations then the question is is

What Christ is commanding good for the people? He's commanding it for well. Well, who is Christ again?

We are all Christians in this in this conversation here. We all claim to be Christians in this conversation here and so we all believe that that Christ is the second person of the

Trinity that he is indeed God and Therefore that he is the creator of all things that he created heaven and earth right is

Tim. Would you? Would you agree with that? What that Jesus created the heaven and earth?

Yes. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Okay good. I am from the Trinity I from virgin birth resurrection from all that awesome fantastic and so what we understand all three of us is that God created all things and then he called all things very good and so if He created all things and he created all things very good

Then we can infer from that that all things that he commands are for the good of the people he created it for so if God's commandments are fundamentally good and Jesus commanded

That the nation's should bow down and obey him that we should go and disciple the nation's that the nation should be baptized in the

Trinitarian name then what we say when we say that Christian nationalism is

Fundamentally not biblical or fundamentally not good for society What we're saying is that that thing that God has commanded what

Christ has commanded that we obey is not good for society what we're doing is we're taking our own wisdom and We are putting our own wisdom above what

God has commanded and putting ourselves in his place to say no, I have more

Knowledge about how the world works. I I know what's better for society than what Jesus does

So if Christ has claimed that all authority belongs to him and Based on that authority that we should go and make disciples of all nations that the nation should obey him.

He's doing that for Our good and for his glory everything that God commands.

He commands for our good and for his glory He says all things work together for good to them that love God and to those who are called according to his purpose.

So What we're talking about is is it good for society? And what we're going to get into when we're talking about that is what constitutes good for society, right is being a part of another religion that is

Opposed to the religion of Scripture. Is that good for society is being Homosexual good for society is abortion good for society is these thing are these things these cultural issues that Christian nationalists like myself would oppose are they good for society or Should we affirm all these things in opposition to What Christ has commanded in his word and so?

Christian nationalism is good for society because Christ does not command things that are not good for the people he created

Okay, yeah, so that's kind of gets it gives us a little taste of where both of you guys are at now the fun starts

Let's just discuss among ourselves. So you guys laid out two really different ideas there

It looked like Kenton you kind of replied a little bit more to what Tim said So maybe I'll throw it back over to Tim Tim Do you have it would you have a question for him?

Or do you have a maybe a response to what he just said about you know, even quoting Matthew I have a thousand questions.

I want to try and be succinct though. I mean one of the big ones listen I mean we I could argue well

Why even the idea of a nation in Jesus time is not the same thing at all to how we think about nations today

But that gets us in the weeds out for sake of argument I will not address more the theological perspective on that side my biggest question is and this will get really

I think to the core of our disagreement is What are God's laws in the Bible that are prescriptive for a nation?

And then how do you decide so is that is God commanding Israel to wipe out the nation next to them?

Is that one of God's laws that we should be applying for certain circumstances? Is it certain ones in the Levitical law in the in the

Torah? Is it the teachings of Jesus when you say God's law? I hear this all the time. What laws are exactly we talking about?

then how do you define or how do you even get to which ones in the Bible would be prescriptive versus descriptive because To me as far as I can tell it seems a lot of and by the way,

I don't mind this But I just feel like Christian nationals aren't honest about this a lot of picking and choosing

You know James 5 for example is a pretty clear condemnation of rich business owners who exploit their workers for unfair wages

Yet, that's not I mean, there's no talk about holding Elon Musk for example to account for him being able to profit

Unfairly off of his working class despite James 5 being clear that we can say that's one of God's laws So I'm just kind of curious for you

How you think about what God's law is and what these definitions and parameters are how you get there?

So yeah, good question. One thing that I would ask is as a point of Clarification is when you say, you know

Christian nationalists pick and choose and you give the example of James 5 Give any other examples? Well, I mean we can go I mean listen

I can go down the stereotypical route right of like should I have a clothing made of two different polymers, you know

Should I be able to eat lobster or not? Those are all commands given by God We could are and I'm sure we would agree they were given to God for a certain people for a certain time

But that's the crux is how do you decide? Which laws in the Bible and there are a lot of them some could be applicable some might not be how do you decide?

What God's law is when you use that term like what's the definition for that? Okay. So yeah what

I'm gonna state is And I'm sure you're familiar You know If you if you're familiar with guys like Joel Webb and Doug Wilson Steven Wolf Some of these guys on the reformed

Christian nationalist side. Are you are you familiar with the threefold division of the law? You mean like ceremonial ceremonial civil and moral, right?

Yeah, I'm very familiar And so what I would say is when we're talking about God's law If we and I don't have the citation in front of me, but we look at the book of Hebrews the book of Hebrews is going to tell us that the ceremonial law of God specifically has been totally abrogated right and so the way that the confession that I subscribe to the 1689 confession is going to say is that we should obey and And subscribe to or we are not

Beholden to God's law other than the general equity of that law So what we are going to or what

I advocate for as a Christian nationalist Is that the moral law of God is?

Universal right the the Ten Commandments the summary law of the moral law Or the summary of the moral law written in the

Ten Commandments is a universal principle Romans chapter 2 tells us that the moral law of God is written on the hearts of men.

And so based on that moral law we extrapolate and exegete all the other laws that God has given and Define them based on how they've been applied in the

Old Testament to that particular people and we apply that law based on the moral law to our

To our present day. Does that make sense? Just two things number one because we're debating don't mind me if I'm a little bit, you know aggressive

I don't mean it in bad faith. I just get really into this stuff But I mean you're really all over the place here first You're appealing to the 1689 confession then you're appealing to the

Ten Commandments and you're quoting 2nd Corinthians So like is there a standard set of laws that you would say this is

God's law and again if the Bible is the inspired Word of God as you would hold and you're a biblical inerrantist Why are you comfortable being able to subscribe to the 1689 confession as authoritative over what's clearly in the

Bible? And this is the riddle. I can't solve I don't even by the way just to be even more clear this idea

The threefold division ceremonial. What is it moral? I think whatever the other third is that's also not inherent to the

Hebrew Bible that those categories are not in the text. They're added on by people in Reinterpreting what these laws mean and how they function.

Well, why do you like a reinterpretation? Well gives you because I if the because if I read the biblical law to you about not having mixed fabrics

You would interpret that law and say no no, no, even though it doesn't say in the text There's a reason why that law in all

I believe this I believe that's found in Leviticus chapter 18 in That Context talking about mixed fabrics.

What is what is the purpose behind that law you tell me? Well, I'm asking you

Because when you look at the surrounding laws, they're about not mixing fabrics, right? And and there's a bunch of other laws in that surrounding context about not mixing things.

The point is in Israel in National Israel at that time at that place

They were supposed to be a peculiar people set apart for a specific purpose that purpose was to bring about the

Messiah, right? God promises Abraham in Genesis chapter 15 that he will that his offspring will be a blessing to all nations and so the purpose behind that law not mixing fabrics and the reason that I can say that we're not beholden to that law is that the moral purpose behind that law was to Further explain the difference and the separation that Israel had with with other nations and so because I'm not an

Israelite and because True Israel has come because Christ has come and has fulfilled that law.

We're not beholden to it, but we are still beholden to what is Written in God's moral law.

We're still beholden to not commit adultery to have no other gods beside the one true God to Not have any graven images not to murder not to steal.

We're still beholden to the moral law of God Just two things and I mean, it's all due to respect you you just there's no

You're just that's just made up like like what you said about like the fabric thing Representing not mixing things and that that's the interpretation like where do you get that from?

Is it in the text somewhere? Is there a commentary that you can cite? I need actual evidence for why that that's a biblical interpretation

Like Leviticus 18 is in the same passage where you talk about not having sexual relations with other types of people

Okay, including I believe you know, I believe this is the passage in here I think it's in here also where it mentions don't sleep with people of the same sex

So can we agree then that if you're gonna argue against this stuff? The Levitical law as a whole should be tossed out and we can go down to the teachings of Jesus as far as God's law

I'm just trying to understand when you say God's law. What are we actually talking about here? Like what are this? What are the parameters besides?

Oh, well, that's moral. That's ceremonial Even though again the text never says that you're adding that into the text

What are is the teachings of Jesus because I would love to go there and we can compare and contrast what Jesus teaches us versus Christian nationalism, but what is this

God's law thing? And where are we getting it from that is steep in some kind of objective reality when you say

Where does God's law come from? Right what

I what I've been explaining is that the moral law of God provides the framework the Summary of the

Ten Commandments provides the framework for the laws that we should implement into society. So When I talk about Christian nationalism, what

I'm saying is that our laws should reflect the moral framework of the Ten Commandments Okay, Ten Commandments.

So we're getting rid of the other laws that God gave the Israelites That's not part of God's permanent moral law.

The Ten Commandments is it? I would say that there are laws within the law that that God has given to Israel that reflect principles from the

Ten Commandments and those laws are Applicable in some way to us.

Okay. Got it beneficial. I'll use the word beneficial. Got it. Do you have questions for me?

I don't want to hog all the question time Well, you said let's go to the words of Jesus. What specifically do you think that Jesus says that would oppose

Christian nationalism? Blessed are the meek love your enemy as yourself Probably thinks about how rich people aren't gonna enter the kingdom of heaven

There's that's just a few to get started I mean Christian nationalism is built on the ethos of we're in charge and we rule the whole teaching in life of Jesus is that He bore a cross for his enemies

Christian nationalism losing in crucifying theirs is Authority inherently bad

No, of course not So then why is it bad to have in a

Christian nationalist framework what we have is that we want Christian principles to govern society, right?

Well, you don't you want some you you don't want you don't want your enemies loved in a

Christian society You want to throw them in prison? Okay, so it's throwing an atheist in prison a Christian Ethic, is that loving your enemy?

What would the what would we throw the atheist in prison for because Blasphemy according to Stephen who authored the book the book the case for Christian nationalism

I'm just quoting people who claim the Christian nationalist mantle and he did say under Christian nationalism

Women are not leading in any major capacity and atheists are thrown in prison. I'm all for blasphemy laws, by the way

That's an actual quote from him So I'm just asking how is that loving your atheist neighbor by throwing them in prison just for being okay are what

What constitutes committing blasphemy? Under his framework and What you're getting at there is that if an atheist breaks the law of God?

Right and has another God before him or takes the name of God in vain under that framework then we can have civil penalties for them and the question right the original question of is that good for society is being an atheist is rejecting the foundation

Of all of creation, is that good for society? The problem is that you're so stuck in your role of you

You really think that you have some objective reality about the moral universe that no one else has ever thought about or has ever

Philosophized about there are legit Atheists who have legit things to say that could absolutely benefit society not even religiously speaking just in general as a human being

Maybe they're an engineer. Maybe they're electrician. Maybe they love their family really well So throwing I mean, let's just get real pragmatic for a second let's say you have an atheist in your society who has a family and has kids and they break the moral law of God by I guess not

Claiming Christ is Lord and they're thrown in prison and their kids grow up with a dad or a mom in prison

Can you explain to me how that benefits society? I want real brass tacks reality.

I don't want a theory or nonsense I want this is the implication of what you're talking about. So how is that good for society for?

Potentially not have a family. I wouldn't throw an atheist in prison for quote not Professing Christ is

Lord and I probably wouldn't throw an atheist in prison for even publicly Denouncing Christianity.

In fact, I'm a little hairy on the whole prison punishment as a punishment period so That period

I that wouldn't be an issue How about thrown atheist and how about the gay man who has a family would you throw him in prison for being gay

I would Reject his I would reject the claim that the gay man can't have a family. So okay.

So this homosexuality great Let's get again brass tacks for just for sake of argument. Let's forget about what you believe

I understand that I grew up the same way I get that in America as we speak right now.

I personally know Several people who are married to a partner the same sex who have children and All those children have known are those two people as the parental figures in their life

You get power tomorrow to do whatever you want as a Christian nationalist. Tell me what happens to that family unit

You don't have to accept it in your theology as a real family But whatever you want to call it They are together and those kids look to those people as their guides and sustainers financially, etc

What happens to those two people in there in those two kids I Don't think that it is good for children to be in a household where That household is predicated on two men with disordered desires that have broken

God's law that are daily committing adultery there are plenty of examples of Of Homosexual families quote families that are they're not families.

You're miss or you're not defining marriage properly Those children would be taken out of that situation.

That is an abusive situation by who by by the state and where would they go? my

In a perfect Christian nationalist society, yeah, they would go to the church And the church would find them new homes

And you think that benefits them ripping them away from their parental figures Wow. Absolutely.

That's unreal. It's unbelievable. I Would say we have just to interject here

I don't want to interject too much but a couple things that I just throw out there for thought too is Kent and I heard you talk about general equity, which is where I'm closer to you.

You know, if you look in Leviticus about a If Someone doesn't contain their ox and it bores a man.

Well, then that man faces the death penalty I would say the general equity of that law It could be something like vehicular manslaughter or something like that to where if you have a tool at your disposal

Or you look to Alec Baldwin who accidentally shot someone he claims or doesn't claim whatever happens there

You have responsibility if you take a life you you could be held responsible with your life, even if it is

Accidental so there in Christian nationalism and in the one that that I would say would be the only one that would work properly

Would be a general equity meaning we're not going law for law for that time for Israelites But we're pulling the general equity of that lawn.

We have so many of those examples today You said you don't want to separate Tim. I know you asked the question separate a child from a same -sex couple

But we take children out of houses all the time for parents who Drink too much and don't send their kids to school for truancy

I'm a county commissioner I get sheriff reports all the time of us separating children and parents from for much lesser breaking of laws

Than adultery before God, so I would well Yeah, the wild part about that claim is that alcoholism

Objectively with data harms people around them, right you actually harm children You believe that two men having sex is adultery

Despite data proving that many people do that and have flourishing lives a full of love whether you want to believe it or not

It's fine But it's just funny to hear you compare it to alcoholism as if they have the same real -world consequences when that's just not true at all well, let's get back to Foundations right you said that I have a

I think the word you use or the the phrase you use was an objective moral framework, right? I believe that in your sermon that I listened to you gave me you use that that use that language.

Okay, so Is there an objective moral framework in what could in what way?

Are is there such thing as objective morality? It depends is lying always wrong No, okay, it's feeling always wrong

No, okay. I mean I just give you two things that that there's no objective truth about there's

Parameters that make lying and stealing not wrong for sure, right? But in people and what do we are those parameters?

It depends. It's different societies to see it differently. The reason why we have a court system That's so robust does make things case by case morality define on the society that defines it or does morality depend on God Well, I think in America actually no globally every society has different standards for different things and there are general ideas

Killing someone is usually my most society seen as wrong, but there are always exceptions, right? Did you kill the person in self -defense?

Did you kill the person's they were trying to harm you or someone else that depends? I mean in the societies some people say

For are those societies objectively amoral what I'm trying to get at is for example, who is the is it who is the

The guy just got acquitted today for for putting the guy in a sleeper hold Jordan Neely.

Yeah. Yeah, he killed that guy and the Jury said you're acquitted. Was he objectively wrong for doing that?

First of all, I don't think he actually killed the guy Well, he put him in okay And second of all the man was posing a danger to all the people on that train

So so he does okay my well, I would just say very quickly too. We probably need to be careful about throwing around Killing versus murder.

Those are two different things. Even our court systems recognize the difference between Killing and murder one being premeditated one taking a life

There are two different things and you know, the Ten Commandments that that Hebrew word there is murder.

It's not kill I'll show not murder. I don't know if I'll just throw that out there that maybe that's enough Just more more stuff in the pot.

Oh, yeah, I don't I mean we can't go down the apologetic straw I'm just trying to we probably stick to the thesis in general is Christian nationalists good or national nationalism good for society

And you're saying overall because no it isn't Because and I maybe

I want to shift gears here to this to the New Testament We've just spent 20 minutes in the Old Testament and we started to get into the words of Jesus You said something that kind of piqued my interest

Well, no, it goes against blessed are the meek it goes against love your enemies Tim, where are you seeing?

Christian nationalism being proposed where it wouldn't love their enemies Because I think what we then would define is well, what does it mean to love someone?

Does it mean for them to continue in their sin or continue to be self -destructive or does it mean that we do something else?

Yeah, well usually loving your enemies doesn't mean throwing them in prison just throwing that out there I'm throwing a criminal in prison an act of love

It's an act of justice or is is punishing a crime is justice Love is it loving to administer justice to it can be for certain people

But the we're not talking the ethos of Christian nationalism is that everyone outside of its framework is an enemy of God It must be dealt with as such

Christ died for his enemies as Jesus people We have an obligation to love our enemies and hope that they are loved

Well, that's what Christ did for us Christ did not advocate for bearing new crosses for his enemies He bore a cross for his enemies

So what I'm saying is Christian nationals believes in taking over a society ruling by force

Putting people in prison for doing things that they believe are blaspheming God That is not loving our neighbors or enemies.

Well at all. So when Jesus says Go make disciples of all nations and teach them to observe all that I have commanded you is he ruling with force there?

What does he teach them to do? Does he teach them to go take over the government inside of their of whatever nation they're going to and take it from the top?

Down. No, the the whole point of the Jesus movement is that it's underground the last shall be first They it comes from the ground up.

Jesus was a homeless Palestinian Jewish man under Roman occupation He could have said guys.

We got to overthrow the government because I'm in charge here, but he didn't he actually lets the

Empire Crucify him the whole mantra the whole message of Jesus is inherently the opposite of what

Christian nationalism teaches people because Christian nationalism believes that they have the ultimate authority not

Jesus that they have to be the ones in charge to Rule on behalf of God from the top down.

That is not the model for us This is why we need a holistic understanding.

What? Happens every time this how is that a shift because Christian nationalism does not quote

Jesus as often as they quote Arbitrary laws from from the Torah or something about Paul because I just gave you the framework that is objectively true

But how didn't I just Jesus? What didn't I just quote Jesus? Yeah, but as I let me finish my thought

We have to have a holistic understanding about what Scripture says about the Son of God Why did Jesus come into the world

Psalm chapter 2 says you are my son and on this day I've begotten you ask of me and I will make the nation's your inheritance

Psalm 110 says The Lord said unto my Lord sit at my right hand I will make all of your enemies a footstool for your seat or for your feet

Jesus before he ascends into heaven Says go and make disciples of all nations and teach them to observe all that I have commanded you

What Jesus is preaching and teaching when Jesus affirms everything that the Old Testament says?

No, is that he came to Take the nation's he came to make disciples of all the nation's take and make disciples are so different And by the way, your interpretation of Psalms 110 is objectively factually not correct

Look up the Hebrew the Jewish interpretation of Psalm 110 that word Lord is not what you think it means

I encourage anyone to go look it up What you're doing is you're literally picking and choosing verses throughout the

Hebrew Bible tying them back to Jesus and then making the claim that Jesus is gonna is

Calling his disciples to rule by force and as we see in the life and teachings of Jesus with his disciples

Like for example when I was it I think Peter whatever his example is that chops off the guards ear in defense of Jesus What does

Jesus do he heals? He heals the ear of the guard the person who's gonna imprison him the life and model of teaching of Jesus Is very clear in the four

Gospels. It's very clear for what the Christ's follower is to do It's it's it's not even a question.

So I know we can argue argue that theological implication whatever you want I wouldn't argue it's a horrible interpretation

Many actual scholars who know their stuff have debunked this and that's fine And these outcomes do not benefit a society

They they actually harm society and especially the people inside of it who do not adhere to such a worldview

So first of all in a Christian nationalist framework if a man were to chop off the ear of say a police officer and someone failed to render aid and first of all the person who committed the violence would be

Taken to prison and second of all the person ought to render aid Giving an example of Jesus giving kindness and condemning

Peter for what he did. That's not that's not anything against Christian nationalism What we understand is that there are specific rules and responsibilities roles and responsibilities for the state for the civil magistrate and there are roles and responsibilities given to Individual people and so a lot of these things that you're saying.

Hey, Jesus says love your neighbor Hey, Jesus says what you do to the least of these my brethren You do unto me all these things that you're stating are things that are roles and responsibilities of individuals and not necessarily the state so my question for you is

What is the Christian you claim to be a Christian what is the Christian responsibility of the state is it to uphold all these things

That individuals are supposed to do or is it to force individuals to arbitrarily

Put money in a in a specific pot to help, you know Whatever organization whatever social project.

Well, I do think it is interesting how you know the teachings of Jesus are individualized and not for To be applied to maybe systems or structures or whatever, but arbitrary, you know

What you call our moral our God's moral law should be imposed on like a systemic level It's just interesting to me to hear you say that but that's fine.

Um, yeah, I argue for a secular government Because secularism actually allows other other views to flourish so long.

They're not imposing on the other now That's that's a complicated thing there's a reason why we have Courts and governments and we have tons of laws and we have tons of cases and there's nuance and really complicated

Situations come up because the world's a complicated place. This is not binary. We don't live in a black and white world

That's just not how things exist But what makes America and its Constitution so brilliant is that it intentionally does not mention that we are any kind of religious nation

It actually says that the government shouldn't be infringing on the church the church shouldn't be infringing on the state and what that does is it allows people for different beliefs to make room and To have those beliefs so, you know one way to think about it is your right to swing your fist stops for someone else's face

Begins right and people will often ask well then isn't secular secularism a religion?

Not any more than a referee takes a side on a basketball team No the whole point of a secular government is that it's supposed to be right as Much of a neutral space as possible as we reason together with our neighbors to figure out what kind of nation we want to be

What makes Christian nationalism so interesting to me is not that it argues for Christian positions

It's that it argues for positions that are exclusively Christians So for example, I'm much more progression of a progressive

Christian I believe in affordable health care based on the teachings of Jesus and also loving my neighbor, etc but there are plenty of other people in this society who would not be a

Christian who could also agree with me on why affordable health care could be a good thing for humanity or for I should say for America my atheist neighbor and I can reason on that my

Muslim neighbor and I can reason on that we can find common ground despite having different theological beliefs

Christian nationalism wants to hold to exclusive Christian claims and enshrine them

Legally and culturally that everyone else must act at a minimum Acknowledge and that to me is where I think we start infringing on the right to our neighbors

Well -being so I don't think there's a single Christian nationalist who would say that affordable health care is a bad thing

What we would question is Whose responsibility is it to administer that health care should does the state?

have the ability or have the God -given right to enforce me to pay for the health care of the

Homosexual who garnered AIDS because of his illicit living I mean I'm not even gonna entertain that that kind of question because AIDS is so much bigger than people to gay people having sex as opposed to bunk literally in the 80s but on a bigger note universal health care or Our health care that is heavily subsidized by the government happens in many countries and guess what people don't go into medical debt in order to survive unlike in America where 14 % of Americans have serious medical debt 1 % have medical debt over $10 ,000 and Corporations are profiting billions of dollars by denying health claims

So yeah there are way more just and fair ways to administer health care to all of our neighbors and that's part of being in society like Whether you like it or not

Kenton you live in a society with 300 million other people Some of them are gonna have beliefs and even do things that you don't like Just like how you believe things and do things that they don't like but to make society work.

You have to have certain under Foundational understandings that for the common good.

Maybe we pull our resources together This is why thankfully none of us pay for a police force out -of -pocket

It's covered by our taxes despite the fact that maybe me and my neighbor down the street have serious disagreements or maybe even behaviors

I don't like his tax dollars helps cover my cost of every need the cops to show up.

I mean, this is just You know to me, it's not that complicated. So I'll ask the question again do we as individuals do we have to bear the responsibility of a woman getting an abortion or the

Natural consequences of committing adultery are we Beholden to pay those costs.

Is that just in right for us? Yes. Is that good for society? Absolutely, especially when it's the third trimester and something goes terribly wrong with the fetus causing the woman to go septic.

Abso -freaking -lutely It is well, that's not an abortion that is an abortion. I'm not gonna argue that with you

It is absolutely an abortion. There have been so many studies done by this exact thing It is absolutely classed and considered as an abortion look up,

California law on this it absolutely is I Think you might be making this statement as many medical doctors do that.

There's there's no need to kill the The fetus or the child to save the mother if that absolutely does happen at times

The mother is septic. We need to kill the child to save her. That's not what happened

No that app that remove the child and the child can be killed in the process. No what no Right, so yes, there have been cases where a woman is going through a fetal demise where the fetus is on the way out but still as a heartbeat and Doctors cannot go through the procedure because of heartbeat laws on the books and the woman ends up going septic because she's literally bleeding

Out on the floor. There are actual stories that document this. So anyway to answer my question to answer your question.

Yeah I've seen stories. They're all a little shaky, but while we're on the subject of abortion, my question is

Is it good for society to kill? Several million children over the course of 50 years.

Yeah, so a couple things on this first off Of course, we all know hopefully by now that 97 % of abortions happen before the first trimester

So let's just get that out of the way. What does that matter? It absolutely matters. Good. Well, how does that well because the child have more value well

I know that this might sound shocking to some people but you know When a fetus meets an egg and starts to multiply that's not the same thing as a sentient toddler like they're very different things just like how when you go to make a cake the batter before goes in the oven isn't a

Cake yet things have to actually happen chemically same kind of process. But despite all that I understand that Let me concede your point just for sake of argument

The way you do this the way you actually lower abortion rates Man again, this is this is where data matters when

Texas implemented for example the draconian abortion rates abortion bans not only did infant mortality go up per 100 ,000 and abortion rates go up more women died as a result the data is

Absolutely clear on this that the way you lower abortion rates is by access to contraceptive affordable health care livable wages

Okay, and doing things that promote family values, which by the way Kenton I'm sure you and I would agree with I want children to grow up in a loving and stable home where two people aren't first or aren't forced to work for an unlivable wage in Debt up to their eyeballs where they're leaving time away a time away from their kids

So yes, there are absolutely ways to minimize what I would my call is an unnecessary abortion

And so there are ways to do that and the way you do that is not by doing a blanket draconian abortion ban that also in some cases for Christian nationals like Jeff Durbin believes that killing the woman as well is the just thing to So I think that do you do you believe in the death penalty for any reason?

No, why not because I'm a Christian Can you can you cite why your

Christian beliefs would oppose the death penalty? Yes, because Jesus Teaches us to love our enemies.

I don't think killing. I don't think killing stops killing. I don't think violence stops violence I mean, I don't think more fire stops fire.

It's the same logic here That gets back to the question. I asked earlier is applying Consequences to murder is

That loving well consequences are different than murdering someone else. And by the way, it studies do show that that Oh I'm blanking on the term.

Forgive me not retributive justice, but um, whatever there's different frame of justice Someone put it in the comments

But yeah There are other ways to to punish so to speak or even to to teach people who kill others lessons without having to murder them

But that's not what God prescribes what God prescribes is he says that the the states of the nation does not bear the sword in vain right

That's so the Christian position. The objective Christian position is that the death penalty is is good not objective.

It's heavily especially for murderers and so if a mother

Kills her child who was made in the image of God the biblical prescription is that that mother should also be first off You do know that in Exodus 21

It actually distinguishes between the fetus inside the womb and the fetus outside the room as far as consequences, right?

Like you're aware. You're aware that that's an actual passage in Scripture that we can go through right now like the Bible there

Yeah, sure. I'll have no problem doing that While you guys are doing that. Let me just put this out because we've got about 10 minutes left here of Conversation and I just want to tell people in the chat

It's very active in there If you guys have a question for either one of these guys Tim or Kenton Do me a favor and in the chat just start it in all caps question and then state your question

It'll it'll be a lot easier for me to find You know, I think we got a couple thousand different comments here

So, you know just to be able to get to it quickly in the chat guys for those watching And listening just put question in caps and then ask the question

And I think I can infer who the question is for from the question. If not, we'll just give it to both but We're gonna switch to questions here in about 10 or 15 minutes

I know we've gotten a little bit in the weeds here too on certain specific subjects, you know, whether it be

Abortion or abuse or whatever it is and maybe after we look at this this text for the

Few remaining minutes we can kind of zoom back out because I had a couple things over this

Over this discussion too that both Tim and Kenton said that that I wouldn't mind asking you guys both a question on But what text were we referring to Tim there was that Exodus?

Yeah Because I think I'm vaguely familiar. I Something like that of there is a delineation or distinction between Preborn and 22 if people it says if people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely

But there is no serious injury The offender must be fine Whatever the woman's husband demands in the court allows but if there are serious injury or to take life for life

I for I tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise

Just separation there. And I mean, I'm I don't want to argue because Everyone always get stuck in the weeds on abortion

I know I can't make any progress on the actual point But I just wanted to be clear to Kenton that I'm willing to even concede his point and give you actual tools and prescriptions to actually lower abortion rates

And I don't know why So -called pro -life or don't want to incorporate them because in my mind if I really thought that children are being murdered every single day

I'd be as pragmatic as humanly possible to minimize every single one and given that we know that the in fact abortion rates actually

Rose after Trump did the Roe v. Wade overturn that doesn't seem a very practical You know way to lower what you would probably call as a mass genocide of a people

So what I'm gathering is that you do think that lowering abortion rates Or minimizing the number of number of abortions that that take place in this country is a good thing, right?

It's good Yeah, I don't think I don't want more of why of course not Why what why is it good to limit the number of abortions?

Would it be a good thing if there were zero elective abortions that took place? It'd be a great thing if people were actually able to choose when they wanted to get pregnant or not.

I Agree great. So what how do we do that Kenton? How do we do that? maybe instead of and maybe instead of punishing the top of the dandelion we go to the root and we solve the root and We give people access to contraceptives and sexual education

So they know how a penis in the vagina work and how this is a real thing I mean or you and I grew up in purity.

How about this? We both believe that God created the universe

Sure. Do we do you agree that what God created was very good? Sure If God created the universe the universe that he created is very good

Then the way that he is ordered the universe the universe belongs to him we should obey his law and his understanding on these things the way that we control or limit and and give people the choice of when they want to get pregnant is that we follow

God's laws and God's Directions in regards to sexuality. Oh my goodness and your fatal flaw is if you're using the

Bible saying thou shall not commit adultery It's just your your

I Agree with you up until you get to the God's law part because if you're using the Bible Especially the

English Protestant Bible as the foundation for that you're on a slippery slope. I mean, okay one example

Let me ask you a question. This is not a trick question I want to make sure that I'm understanding Would you say that Adam and Eve for the first two people that we all have descended from at some point in history?

Yes, okay So obviously then just by nature of logic Adam and Eve and their kids at some point had to start having incestuous relationships with each other

Right. Yes, and okay. Why okay So I'm trying to understand is like what what part of God's sexual clear sexual ethic?

Are we talking about here lame? It takes two wives in Genesis for God while speaking on behalf of the

Prophet Nathan says to David I not give you your previous Kings wives all eight of them

What clear sexual ethic are we talking about especially when you consider that in the Hebrew in Greek?

there is no word for husband or wife it is always man or woman in the languages a man takes a woman and Claims her it's only adultery if the woman suits with another man

Not if if a man sits with another woman in the Hebrew Bible at least that's the whole point So, I don't know what kind of clear sexual ethic you're talking about.

I just read through the Hebrew Bible. It's all over the place Yeah, um again,

I would submit to the clear sexual ethic that that Jesus states a Man shall leave his father and mother he shall cleave to his wife and they too shall become one flesh.

That is God's design for Sexuality that is what he is prescribed That is what he commanded both in Genesis chapter 2 and that's what

Jesus commanded And I believe it's Matthew chapter 19 Okay, so we get rid of everything else. We ignore those in the

Bible We go to those two passages and that that's our proof text for the foundational belief. That's what Jesus claims as a biblical sexual ethic

Yes, that's what now we go to marriage I'm just trying to keep track of like when we're in the Hebrew Bible when the Ten Commandments apply like that's supposed to be a thing but then

As the Son of God and the author of all of Scripture is the one who can perfectly interpret

Scripture And so we should fall upon his interpretation Okay, so we should then love our enemies we should yes

I should then celebrate that blessed are the meek and not the powerful that the first shall be Last and last shall be first Yeah, was

Jesus powerful is Jesus powerful does Jesus have all authority on earth Yes, do you have authority on all on earth

Kenton? No, but I Of Christ I go exactly his authority and there it is and that's the way my nation

My friend you think and this is my whole point Christian nationals believes that a mandate by God to take over the nation because you think that you have the power that Christ has given

You so you're you? Yes, Jesus has all power. You do not when

Jesus says go therefore and make disciples of all nations What does he mean by go there for go there for therefore what go because of his authority, right?

No, go and preach the good news that there's a new kingdom. That is the upside down Kingdom What is the nation's it means to teach them the ways of Jesus?

So blessed are the meek blessed first our last blessed are the poor in spirit This is like this is this is the this is the gospel my friend

I don't know how to say it like we can read through the whole summer on the mountain go through it line by line Oh, we can talk about does

Christian nationalism embody this or does it not? And we can just go all the way down the list It doesn't it doesn't care about its neighbors, it doesn't care about them

It cares about ruling and taking control and being in charge Why are ruling control and charge objectively bad things?

I don't say that that they were not always bad things I'm glad that I'm in charge of my kids when they're going crazy But we're talking about other human beings who have different so when we you know, we just like horizon

We have a society that has fundamentally refused God's love the the law of the

Creator and Abandoned what he is commanded Why is it good for society?

to Disobey what God has done? I want to be clear that um, just be very clear if the

Ten Commandments are God's law as you said earlier I think our society like has eight out of ten enshrined somewhere in law.

You can't steal in America You can't do a lot of things you can maybe can have adultery or adulterous affairs even then there's still consequences for your actions

So I'm just saying like let's not make it seem like somehow America and these Ten Commandments have absolutely no overlap

There are definitely laws on the books that protect several of what the Ten Commandments says Despite all of that though Let me ask you a question if you were listening right now to a

Muslim speak and they said listen Sharia law is ordained by by Allah like we don't care what you have to say

Kenton Our God has given us all power and authority To disciple the nation's and the proselytize to you and honestly until you repent and convert to Muslim to Islam Yep, you know, we're gonna keep coming for you.

Would you really take them seriously? Would you accept that as an acceptable way to live underneath the nation of America Tim as a

Christian or as a as a Christian is The Islamic God is

Allah the true God Kenton this is my exact point This is my exact point it is the

It is the spider -man meme my friend. That's what's going on here

You have taken a by the way might be very clear a very particular set of Christian framework

Like your framework comes from American fundamentalism more than the historic Christian tradition in so many ways

But whatever you've taken that and you said I'm standing on some kind of objective framework of how I interpret the Bible and now everyone

Else in America despite their objections should be completely overridden because I have the truth that no one else has

Did Allah create the universe? I the universe belonged to Allah the it belongs to God whoever

God is Is God described in the Christian Bible or is he described in the Quran? Well God can be described in many ways my friend

God is bigger than God, you know, God proceeds when the when the Bible was written, right? Like we're aware of that.

I am aware but the Bible is The Word of God no, I would not agree with that for many reasons, but okay

So that you are rejecting the premise that scripture itself puts forward that no Interpretation of a fundamentalist view of the scriptures.

That's a very see what I see happening over and over again Is that you're taking what is taught in scripture?

You're taking clear biblical commands like go and disciple the nations and teach them to observe all that Like scripture is that which is breathed out by God like do not commit adultery

Do not murder and and you are saying no, that's your interpretation That's not you are putting yourself above God's commandment and you are allowing yourself to define.

What is moral? What is good? No, that's what you had of relying on the definitions of the God of you all do this There's same reason why you made you gave me an argument why?

Fabrics of a mixed nature are fine. You do the same thing. You just don't see it You're also interpreting scripture through particular lens.

You have a framework a hermeneutic now, you believe it's the right one But I have shocking news for you

I mean, it's all due to respect you're a small tiny sliver on the edge of 2 ,000 years of Christian tradition

Eastern Orthodox Catholic Protestant denominations, so you don't have the corner on this stuff man.

You just don't there's 2 ,000 years of writings of Legit theologians even

Augustine who believed that the seven -day creation narrative was allegory not a literal thing There's plenty of people disagree with you and you don't have the objective truth to say or right to say.

Sorry guys They're all wrong. I'm all right now submit to me and my interpretation of this stuff.

That's just a reality, dude Even your even your claim about about all scripture being God breathed

You know that the Bible was not formed when that was written I know, you know that you know that the

New Testament was not canonized when that was written The New Testament was already breathed out by God before the church

Recognized it right? No what no the church fights over this Eastern Orthodox have different books in their

Bibles in the Catholic tradition Like this is what we do man. We fight about I'm aware But if if God wrote a book then he only wrote one.

Well, I don't think God wrote a book humans wrote the Bible We believe that they were inspired by God. That's a very different thing than saying

God wrote the Bible and again, you're ignoring the very long Proven tradition of how we have our modern -day

Bibles like it's a long story. It's not I am aware That's a a story.

I've spent a lot of time studying out. I Yes, but that's not the subject of this discussion.

Sure. And so no problem Alright, so let's wrap this up a little bit here because we are just a little bit

Over an hour in and I think we're getting into some I knew it would go into some places where we probably hadn't planned

Anyway, but I'm loving this Kenton. Hope you're cool, man. I know I'm a little intense. Yeah, I really am enjoying the discussion

I'll talk to you anytime offline as well. I actually that idea that you had about talking about deconstruction

I thought that was interesting would love to yeah So I want to get to a few questions here if you guys don't mind because I have some for Kenton I have some for Tim the first one that I thought was interesting and I'm gonna cherry -pick these because I kind of had the same question is

Said Tim, do you believe we live in a secular nation? Currently you said

That you would prefer a secular nation. Do you think we're a Christian nation a secular nation? What would your secular nation look like?

Well, I mean we're ruled by a secular Constitution There's there's no mention of God the Bible the

Christian God in particular, especially Now that being said, I mean, I would say endowed from our Creator has some type of deity to it

Yeah, but that's but that's the declaration declaration That the founders wrote the

Constitution is was a fundamentally Christian framework. Yeah, I understand that argument I would just cite many books that that by actual historians who disproved that but that's fine

What I would say is that I would say other ones from different historians that disagree with your historian No, I guess it's not objective that I guess it's a matter of opinion so Yeah, I mean right and one is wrong.

Well, hold on there Ken Let's get Tim to answer the question that he was starting to answer What is it?

You know, are we in a secular nation? And then also what what would your what would your perfect nation look like? Well, I believe that we

I mean There's I'll be assisting this possible. I mean on paper. Yes. We're a secular nation.

Our Constitution is secular You know, that's that's just what it is, but it's very evident that Christians have an immense amount of privilege here

I mean their rights are oftentimes protected more than others who are religious differently American Christians enjoy an entire ecosystem of Social media channels church networks music networks movie networks that are all completely enhanced by the culture

So, I mean it's pretty clear to me I mean, by the way there are Supreme Court cases that we can document to of the

Supreme Court routinely deciding in favor of religious freedom for Mostly conservative Christians is the other ones who are usually bringing these cases to court

That being said as far as my most ideal nation, I mean, it's a big question I would love to be in a nation where my neighbor could work a full -time job and not worry about going into debt

I would love a nation where people can get access to education that is affordable and doesn't put them in predatory loans

Which I hope Kent and I would both agree that usury and the exploitation of ridiculous interest charges are unethical for anyone

I would love a society where people felt like they had what they needed and were able to spend time with their families and their

Kids and not be completely sold out to a corporate, you know Post -capital or late -stage capitalistic nightmare where people are working over and over just to get their health care taken care of So I have a lot of things

I love to see done in a country that you know Again, we're all the citizens were promoted are we're flourishing and their needs were met and six kind of same question to you

Kenton, do you believe we are in a Christian nation or a secular one? I I would assume from your argument argumentation tonight.

You would prefer a Christian nation, but When you look at the founding of the of the nation, what do you see there?

So I would argue or I would claim that at the founding of this nation

We were founded as a Christian nation But that we have since Shedded that label that that we have

Abandoned God and I would argue that we're under his judgment now So we were a

Christian nation. We are no longer Can I sequester that follow -up? Could you give me?

Back then what made America a Christian nation? Was it when we had race -based chattel slavery? Was it when we had

Jim Crow laws and then what was the moment or time in American history where we ceased to be Christian?

And what was the reason for that? so I think it's Interesting how you you take the

What is perceived as the worst parts of our history and you impose that on the entire thing but I would say that every or almost every founder of this nation

Subscribed to Christian beliefs King George even called the American Revolution one time the

Presbyterian Revolution so there there is a fundamental Christian founding in this nation because the ones who founded it operated on a fundamentally

Christian worldview and then I would say when we shedded that would be

It begins Around World War two and and I think it's it's fully gone by the turn of the century can a

Christian nation have Can a Christian nation be a place where slavery is legalized and and promoted

What do you mean promoted? Well, like, you know slavery was part of like the ecosystem that made the whole thing work for a long long time so can a

Christian nation be a place where slavery is Endorsed and promoted as like the thing to be doing to keep this economy going as it was in the early

South there would have to be a lot of Further definition of what slavery is but yes, okay and just last follow -up question.

I'll stop Can a Christian nation be a place where LGBTQ people are allowed to live and flourish? I will

Say and practice, you know, no.

Okay. Thank you. No, the answer is no They wouldn't be criminally penalized

Necessarily, but I do think there is sufficient biblical warrant for homosexuals to be severely punished for their disordered actions and my

Personal position would be I would love to see a nation where they go back in the closet where they belong

Thank you So I have a question from Sherry J here for Kenton and this is going back a little bit

She said cite the source Kenton if objective Christian view on the death penalty

So I think she was referring to when you said you believe the Bible does support the death penalty.

She's looking for You know, maybe a verse or or where you're citing that source to call it objective

I can't remember if you called it objective or not. Forgive me if For not remembering but did you have anything maybe just give a minute or so on that?

Yeah, I'll quote the verse. Give me just one second to pull it up Okay and I love the

ASRM we're getting off of Tim's drink there every time he takes a step and crunches those cues.

Oh, no, it's I wasn't saying that to be me and I'm saying I'd like the sound

I'm hearing it's right next to me It feels like I'm I'm having two fingers of scotch or something. I am so fidgety.

I'm always like doing something So I I apologize everyone. That's my bad Okay. Yeah, so What I would quote is

Romans chapter 13 verse 3 for rulers are not a terror to good conduct But to bad would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?

Then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is God's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid for he does not bear the sword in vain for he is the servant of God and a vendor of those who are an avenger who carries out

God's wrath on the wrongdoer, so That would be my citation. Okay, so you're using the sword to include the state being able to have the

The authority to put someone to death for capital crime. Yes Okay, all right, that's reset

Sherry. All right, so let's let's wrap this up. I know we're getting close to Well, I mean

I'm trying to look I'm a question So, yeah, let's do that I mean if we're gonna go along with the death penalty thing

And I think you and I would actually agree strongly on this point probably For sake of argument, let's say okay death penalty is in America, which it is

I'm assuming that you support it for people who I'm gonna use very broad language to avoid censorship on YouTube, but Child abuse if he gets my drift, right?

Yes. What is your take for those kinds of people? What do you mean what's my

Penalty for them? Yeah. Yeah kill him. So and this is a real question I mean

What do you think about all the church abuse cases including ones by like Doug Wilson who married off Steven Sittler a known?

Child abuser to a woman who then later on abuse his own infant So those people also be put in prison under a

Christian nationalism, even though they would profess Christian nationalist ideals I'm not familiar with that specific situation, but like I said earlier,

I'm from an independent fundamental Baptist background and they have had their issues in the past and my consistent

Answer Yeah in every case of that that I found that I found reasonable and verifiable evidence that there was wrongdoing on the side of of the

Pastor youth leader, whatever is yeah cool, um Changing gears really quick.

I had one more thought I forgot to get to And I'll wrap it up here on my end, you know in first Corinthians 5

Paul was talking to the church He makes it pretty clear That we have an obligation to really critique the church and not the world because it is

God's business to judge the world Especially the sexually immoral So I'm just kind of curious like, you know

And it actually makes sense if you think about all the letters that Paul is writing is really to the church Not to to the world.

Why do you feel the need so much to really control things outside of what the church's responsibility is?

Including the lives of other people who would hold to no such belief that you have and really trying to be left alone They don't care what you do in your church

They don't care how you raise your kids how you educate them what you believe They just want to be left alone able to live their life how they want in peace and quiet Why do you feel the need to barge into their bedrooms or whatever else it might be and say?

Sorry, you know I believe that God has told me that I have the authority to throw you in prison or penalize you for you know

Having sex with your with your partner Who's also member of the same sex when first Corinthians 5

Paul's pretty clear that we have an obligation to hold those Accountable inside the church and to leave those inside the outside in the world alone

Because I have an actual theology of God's judgment and blessing upon a nation I believe that when a nation obeys

God's Word, they are blessed and when they disobey God's Word in large They are cursed I believe that if a nation does not adhere to what has been revealed in Scripture that it poses serious and damning danger to that nation and if we do not promote a biblical

Understanding of society within a nation if we do not Punish those who

God has commanded us to punish if we do not uphold those God has commanded us to uphold Then there will be severe and serious judgment.

So do you disagree with Paul then and what he says here? I Would have to look into that passage and see what specific

I can read it right here Corinthians 5 9 through 12 I wrote to you my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people

Not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral or the greedy and the swindlers or idolaters in that case

You would have to leave this world But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone that claims to be a brother or sister

But is sexually immoral or greedy an idolater or slander a drunkard or a swindler do not even eat with such a people

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside God will judge those outside expel the wicked person from among you

So When he says expel the wicked person from among you, how do you know which person is wicked? You have to make a judgment on that.

Well in this context He's talking about sexual immorality where he says that again What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?

Are you have to judge those inside? So the context is look at who's inside your church doing these things and get them out But it's

God's business to judge the world outside of it Yeah And again, like I said, I have a legitimate theology of God's judgment upon a nation

God does judge evil doers outside of the church and again What he's saying here is within the context of church

Don't associate don't pass judgment on people outside of it But in the the context of church discipline if you find an evil person within expel them, right?

Yeah, but he also says I don't see an issue with this when it comes to Christian nationalism. This is talking about in church politics

Paul go on in first Corinthians 6 to talk about Disputes within the church between brothers and how they ought not go to civil authorities for that but that they should deal with it within the church as brethren this this doesn't have any bearing on public policy or the theology of the civil magistrate well obviously not really any of this does because the

Ten Commandments are written to the people of Israel not to the entire world in that context the Levitical law was written to the people of Israel the nation of Israel at the time the teachings of Jesus are applicable to the followers of Jesus and Paul is pretty clear here that those inside the church have an

Obligation to hold those inside the church accountable and not worry about about whatever the world's doing But it seems like because you have a few verses that you believe, you know

Teach that Christ will rule the nations one day That somehow gives you the permission structure to now start judging nations now based on that belief system, even though you're not

Christ So I'm just trying to understand like I don't see what you're seeing a in the

New Testament When it comes to how we judge nations and be in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible as it should be called

You know given the context of those passages as well Again, I I just don't think this this passage is the slam -dunk that you think it is

I think this is talking about a very particular totally fair context. Okay, understandable Tim I have a question for you.

So you're not advocating for a country that is lawless though, right? I mean you do you do recognize a look at there needs to be

Criminal charges for you know, yes degree murder. That's right. Yes, of course.

Sure crown crony capitalism You know all these things So wait, so so do you and Kenton agree though that that that moral law that directs our laws that we have on the books?

Right now let's say for for the United States of America Does do you believe that is based in God's moral law, which is based in at least the

Ten Commandments? We don't have to get let's not get back into Exodus and Deuteronomy Would you would you agree with that or do you or do you see do you say this is subjective because I know we had

Some subjective morality talk come up earlier and I kind of want that pricked my ear and I kind of wanted to go back to that my understanding is that as far as the foundation of the of the

US goes and those systems and laws and constitutional Republic comes more from English common law than it does the the

Ten Commandments I mean there aren't Sabbath laws on the books. For example, there aren't You know adultery laws on the books

It's not in our Constitution anyway So, you know, I mean sure I guess you can argue that if you want But I think that we're really looking at something that comes from Europe and really old

English common law and then it gets to ride the kind of built out of that I'm not saying that that many of the framers weren't deus in Thomas Jefferson's case

He ripped out parts of the Bible that he thought, you know, we're too miraculous So certainly me that they had some kind of belief and maybe some were even

Christian But I don't think that they were a Christian how we think about it today considering that Fundamentalism as Kenton understands and believes it wasn't even a framework yet But I think we're looking more at English common law from I understand.

Okay, so I mean even going back farther I'm talking about the transcendent understanding between all humankind that harming someone else for personal gain

Probably not the best, you know not getting into the moral landscape with with atheism and things like that I'm saying do you believe that there is a transcendent law from a moral lawgiver?

In general or do you think morals are subjective? Well, I definitely think that there is objective like morals meaning there are things that exist outside of me and how

I perceive them Right, I mean, that's what objective means, right? It exists whether I agree with them or not, right? Like the earth is round is round.

Hopefully we all agree. That's an objective back to the universe I pray to God we're all there because we can verify that and so smaller by the day though So for sure, but I also understand throughout human history

We've really debated the parameters of said what seems to be universal or common agreements on how we define murder versus killing

I mean different countries in different contexts have different answers to that question. So I think is there an Answer to that question of what is murder and what is killing for self -defense or a legitimate reason?

well, if it is it seems like we're all in disagreement, so to you know to certain levels of But again, like you said an objective definition is something that exists outside of ourself.

So Does that exist? Yeah, I mean exactly. Yes who gets to define it? Well usually states and legal and law

I mean, right like for example the definition of murder in the US is objective meaning it exists beyond all of our framework

It lives somewhere on the books in code where that came from is probably other humans But at some point we all agreed to it and we all sit underneath the jurisdiction of said laws

I think that there is objective morality for sure But I also understand the complicated nature and debate that's been happening throughout human history about that objective morality

Just both and for me So Kenton, I would like to ask you a question really quick if you don't mind

Is there there are some even within it within the Christian? Worldview and even smaller within the

Christian Reformed or Calvinistic worldview that take more of a libertarian stance and we kind of libertarian stance

Excuse me, and we and and you and Tim kind of touched on that just with the last verse

What what would you say to someone who says Yeah If you look back in Israel's past you look back in the

Old Testament or even in countries When the when Christ was walking the earth You had nations that said and even

Israel that said yes, we serve God, but there was a sect within them that were not serving or worshiping

God they were idolaters and they were doing different things and They weren't necessarily put to death or run out of the country or put in prison

It almost looks like it might be a dual more libertarian thing of yes We have these laws on the books, but there were sects of people and even some foreigners inside of Israel that That worshiped a different God How do you think that aligns with your view of Christian nationalism being the one you know?

conservative Protestant Christianity being the one and only true religion to rule civilly in a nation.

So if I understand you're asking Under a Christian nationalist framework does there exist a place for other religions in that nation?

That too sure or or private lifestyles Yeah, I was alluding to okay gotcha

I would affirm that that understanding of it if people want to like I'm not gonna go knocking on people's doors and say hey there's a statue of Buddha and you're in your back closet or on your

Front porch dining room table. I'm I'm not gonna go in and you know, send the stormtroopers in after them

I I don't think that that is a Beneficial thing to do what

I will say is that I'm not going to have Giant Hindu statues erected in the city of Houston and so I would distinguish between public worship and private worship in that framework and Any private worship would be

Left alone, but any public worship any erecting of idols would would be

Not allowed. Okay, Tim Yeah, how is that congruent with what you said earlier about benefiting those people?

You mentioned how the most loving thing to do sometimes can be so people know that they're wrong Obviously, I would imagine if you think someone's worshipping

Buddha that they're on the way to hell So, how is that good for them or for society under your own worldview that they're on the way to hell to let them keep

Worshipping that false God in peace. I don't understand that. How is that beneficial for society or for them?

I don't think that and this gets into the gospel a law or an edict cannot force someone to become a

Christian, right and so even if I went into that person's house and I tore down all the statues of Buddha and I rounded him up and put

Him in prison for for worshipping Buddha. They're not going to become a Christian, right? They're just gonna be a Buddhist in the prison instead of a

Buddhist in their home and so what I can do is I can order the laws of of the nation to promote

Christianity and I can as We are commanded to I can preach the gospel to every creature.

I can teach them about what scripture says. This is the differentiation between public law and Private responsibility it is their neighbors responsibility to bring the love and gospel of Christ to them

But we cannot change their hearts But you would also impose severe penalties for people who are practicing same -sex sex

So why why for them but not for the person worshipping Buddha? Because I think those are two separate categories

Yeah, you're right in the Bible worshiping false Gods is quoted way more often with way more severe penalties than the six verses about perceived homosexuality

So I'm trying to figure out here like what what's the motivating rationale for what you're worshipping

Buddha? You're on the way to hell But hey You know live and let live friend versus the two gay guys in their house who are doing nothing to you or anyone else just Loving their well,

I think I think the only instance where I said I would go in and affect the private life of a homosexual

Pairing is if there were children involved again, if there are two gay guys living within a home

I'm not gonna call them married and the state's not going to affirm that but again, I'm not gonna send the stormtroopers to them Okay, sir.

I thought earlier you said that that you would promote like severe penalties or consequences So I said that homosexual lifestyle can lead to severe severe penalties.

Yes Okay, we're coming up an hour hour and a half. So how about we just give two final statements of For the people watching a man.

I'll tell you what our numbers just kept going up and held steady So you guys definitely gave the people what they wanted.

No one was really jumping off. So so Tim let's start with you. Just sum up maybe a minute or two your final thoughts for those

Maybe who just came on and only caught half of it Kind of where you stand on like we said

Christian National is it good for society? You're you're in the firm No, Kenton is in the firm.

Yes, so let's just Put bookends on it. Yeah. Well first off props to Kenton I definitely was you know

I definitely threw a lot at him and was pretty energetic and he's calm and cool as a cucumber So props to you my friend.

I really did enjoy the conversation I appreciate your honesty and your transparency and for the record would happily do this

Conversation with the three of us again on any other kind of topic including deconstruction. So thank you very much And of course, you know, thanks for hosting the podcast.

It's really great to have you and to be on the show with you guys Yeah, my position is pretty clear

I think that Christian nationalism as we talked about today and as we described it is not beneficial for society I do believe that contrary to what

Kenton says he really is also You know picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are objectively true for God's moral law

Which parts are not based on you know, all kinds of reasons I'm not saying that that they don't exist But there's definitely an interpretation process to the

Bible like how all of us have including myself For me as a Christ follower or a little Christ I started the teachings of Jesus and the gospel accounts and I don't see anything in the life and teachings of Jesus that promotes power

Taking power ruling over others lording over others or trying to force them to do things that are beyond what they want to do

I do believe though however in the teachings of Jesus of loving our enemies of being blessed if you're meek of Thinking about the powerless first and living along among the marginalized and speaking truth to power

So that's kind of my position ultimately and I do really hope that you know We live in a country Whether we call it

Christian or not that truly does promote the well -being of all its neighbors livable wages affordable health care affordable access to education pro family values that let mom and dad stay home with their kids more instead of working for some corporate job for Unfair wages while they profit billions on the top.

I'd love to see that rectified it in my lifetime All right, Kevin. Yeah.

Well again, thank you for for having me on. I really appreciate this and I and I did enjoy the conversation What I advocate for and what

I want to see in Our nation is an understanding that our world has been created by God and that God has ordered society in a specific way and that is our responsibility as his creation to Adhere ourselves to what he has commanded for us and so what

Christian nationalism is is simply saying that Sovereign nations should Adhere to what

God has commanded what Tim? I think is advocating for is a very subjective

Worldview where there is no foundation. There is no understanding of God's Moral commandments.

There is no understanding of what God has Commanded for his people and for the people of the world

Tim wants to Create morality in his own image and I think that has devastating effects on society

I think the only way to order society. Well is by ordering it according to what

God has revealed to us So, okay. Thank you all for for having me on. I really appreciated this and I enjoyed it

Yeah, and thank both of you I would just like to say for how far apart on the spectrum If we can call the spectrum or the line that you two are and for the things we talked about the very hot topics

It could have De -evolved very quickly into name -calling and I don't like you and you're not a Christian and you're this and that and it didn't and I Really really appreciate that It just shows me

That there was a lot of things said to me about both of you Some very good and some not so good and it just proves don't listen to the internet

Just sit down and talk people and let their actions speak louder than their words. I appreciate both of you

Even though I may not agree with everything either one of you said I appreciate both of you for doing that and just having a

Simple conversation about some very tough issues. I appreciate that. Thanks guys Thank you. Hey appreciate all you guys out there that watch the live stream, too man

Just going back through the comments after we get off of here You guys will be entertained by that because there was some serious stuff going on there

So guys, we appreciate you watching as always You can find out more about our podcast if you're interested DMW podcast calm find us anywhere on socials