Apologetics Live: Reviewing The New Evangelicals Debate on Christian Nationalism

This you said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply It's not only to that statements would be either true or false

So is it true that I'm talking to you? Is it true? That is true statement. I'm talking to you.

Is that true? Yes. Okay. Is it true that babies exist? Well, I mean how babies exist

Babies exist. Is that true or is it not the case that it's true? I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you won't be very strict about it,

I would be skeptical about okay We're done talking We are live apologetics live here to answer your most challenging questions about God and the

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So if you have any difficult questions or any questions at all, in fact, you can go to apologetics live .com

and You can just scroll down to the stream yard. That's the duck icon. Click on that join the discussion if you're on YouTube That's usually

I think YouTube and X will allow us to see your comments so you can put stuff there if you're there

We'll be able to see your comments, which would be so nice and we will get those questions as well and so tonight we're going to be talking about a

Debate that happened on someone else's channel and the debate was titled does

Christian nationalism help society? It was by dead man walking my friend

Greg Moore Well, we'll see if he admits that we're friends, but you know, I call him a friend. But hey,

I Live in fantasy land But he had a debate and With a guy

Tim Whitaker and Kenning Kenton, and I don't remember Kenton's last name

But he's here so he could tell us and it was a very interesting debate The link is in the show notes even if you look on the video

So I encourage people to look at the video before so you have you know, so, you know, we are what we're talking about so if we don't get all the links to play in but We're gonna try to go through and discuss that because I think there's a lot to learn

It was really I should have titled this Christian nationalism debate with a progressive

Christian Some of you remember when we had the other progressive Christian that came in Anthony.

Well, we have another progressive Christian I don't know if he's gonna come in Tim Tim Whitaker The weird thing with both of these young guys is both of them were in two different churches that I was part of I Don't know what it is that the churches

I've been part of go you get some guy that goes progressive I don't know. It's probably my fault Greg will blame me. Let me bring in my co -host here.

Mr A .m. Brewster one of the speakers at striving for eternity, sir Welcome.

Oh, I see you got you got your new book there. Look at I don't have the cool technology that you have

So I'm just holding it Yeah, you gotta hold it there the whole time. Why don't we the whole time quit?

You know, you gotta quit quit smoking quit drinking quit cussing Now this book is actually quit how to stop family strife for good

I'm gonna interrupt for a second just for timing sake because I want this just popped in Tim Whitaker says

Andrew, are you gonna tell people I went to your church? I Andrew blamed himself

It's a yeah, it's a it's the book I just wrote called quit how to stop family strife for good and it's it's all about really

Stopping the strife, but it's actually it's actually a facade. It's a don't tell everyone this

I don't say this on every interview show So if you people are listening to it here your you get the inside scoop Really what this is is it does appeal to people who have a lot of family strife a lot of family conflict but the only way to really be able to deal with any sins and any big issues in the family is to Release their discipleship.

It's through your family coming to know the Lord and growing in him and that's really what this book is about and then specifically focuses in on the elements of Strife so we talked about the consequences of strife the creators the causes and then eventually we talked about the cure for strife

But I'm not gonna hold it here the whole time and it doesn't look as Hey calculus man says a very seeker sensitive title

Where can folks get that Well, you can go to ever my ministries calm And you can see links there if you are on the ever mind app you can get it in there as a digital version

That's exclusively on the ever mind app, but you can also order it on Amazon Just go to Amazon and put in quit and then my name am

Brewster Aaron Brewster or put in how to stop family strife quit And family strife it'll all come up there in Amazon and you can order

Ever mind ministries because there you get more money than Amazon Let me bring maybe maybe not.

I don't even know how that works anymore. Let me bring in Greg Moore from dead man walking, sir

How are you? So folks don't know Greg Moore if you don't listen to dead man walking

I'll just say that I don't think You need to be following and listening to every episode of dead man walking to get to heaven, but why take the chance just saying

Hey, I want to bring I'm gonna bring a very secret sensitive. Yeah So what we usually do is we start with an in the news section before we get into the main topic and I'm going to I brought

Greg in because I want to I want to in the news section here I'm gonna string these long. He's a politician. So that'll be good too with some of these

Public servant, okay, so And and these are all gonna tie together into I think what'll be the theme for tonight a bit so first I wanted to talk about if you guys hadn't seen there was a a national prayer that they do after a president is

You know, basically after they have the induction for a new president so that it's kind of a national prayer for the person who just became president and What you had was a woman who?

Decided to take that opportunity Where it was supposed to be being respectful regardless of I mean,

I don't care if that was Biden and someone did that I would still say it was very disrespectful what? she did in in taking the time that it's supposed to be a

Honoring of the person who is in the office to then just try to you know, rip them apart But she took that she took that opportunity

Which maybe many of you have seen that clip, but that's not the clip I actually want to talk about the clip.

I want to talk about is what the clip where she explained why she did it She said that the reason she called him out in church is

Because his presence there he was making a political statement and she was not going to stand

For someone making a political statement in the church Now I'm making a political statement.

Okay. Thank you very much. So She's the one that made the political statement. He was there because he was just Installed as president and it was kind of like his responsibility to be there, but that's how that works

That's how that works my like the three of us white dudes, right? I mean cuz you're Jewish So obviously you're a white dude, too

So the three of us white guys, our very presence is triggering our very presence is racist and the people on us

I Am NOT white It's very close to my skin though But then the people who would hate on us the people who would yell and scream at us because our very presence is racist

They're they're not like that's that is how it actually works That's right. This is called projecting and I'm saying this because we're gonna see a theme here

What she's doing is projecting on to Donald Trump, which she actually did right

And like I said, I don't care who's there if if the if it is a national prayer breakfast for the president

You show respect to the office and the person the the second one is

You know is gonna be a similar thing, um, I don't know really really really quick Andrew, can I just interject about how about respect honor?

and glory to Christ the King to God Almighty and Yes political ideology instead of using it as a soapbox

Actually being humbled before a holy God in prayer Well see and that's where I could agree with her argument to say when she's saying well

We you know, the church is not the place to be making political statements. I might be able to agree with that to an extent

You know, but if that's what you believe then you shouldn't do it Right, right because she like he sat there.

He didn't buy she's claiming by him sitting there. He's making political statements She's projecting her behavior onto him

And then we have we had some pardons. I don't know if you you heard about these pardons that were Literally and I predicted this

I was telling people watch Monday morning. We're gonna see pardons. What I didn't expect is that he actually was doing pardons while Trump was speaking

So that they were just last minute He had no time he didn't know about it by the time that he got up to do his his speeches.

So what are you? Biden last -minute part I didn't last -minute partying his family and And others know

What was the reason he gave for pardoning now? It's interesting if we go back in time There was all kinds of people were saying that Trump was gonna pardon his children his family because they were so guilty

He came out and said I'm not planning to pardon any and they didn't do anything wrong. I Don't pardon a person that's innocent.

And so Joe Biden pardoned a whole bunch of people Proactively he said because he wanted to do that too because he assumes

Trump is gonna attack these people and go after them and and do it So he gave a part by the way pardons or purpose the purpose of pardon is you have to actually be guilty there's only one pardon that we have in history before January 20th where you can make the argument that the pardon was for someone that wasn't charged as being guilty and that would be

Nixon and Even then for there was debate over that and Ford actually is his the reason he pardoned

Nixon was he said that Nixon's public statements were it in mission of guilt and therefore he could use that to pardon

Right really quickly. The whole point is whether guilty or innocent There has to be some act that we're weighing the pardon on and this pardon is saying

Oh Proactively pardoned without any evidence one way or another I find it pretty atrocious

I mean Could you imagine having that get out of jail free card to your hunter Biden or one of these or Jill or anyone?

No matter what you do. You got a presidential pardon. That's not how pardon works. It's in the it's in the definition of the word and those

Guilt like he pardoned them and in so doing he is admitting that they did all the things that we've been saying they did

Yeah, he's saying to protect them but here's the thing he's when it was

When it was Donald Trump in office, they said oh he's gonna do this. It's that's illegal you can't do it and Biden even said my administration would never do such a thing and Now he does it now.

Here's the interesting thing. What's the reason he's doing it and and there's there's a point to all this He's projecting on to Donald Trump what he actually did to Donald Trump Right in with all these investigations things like that because we do know that the four cases

You know It's public record to see who goes in and out of the White House all for the prosecutors All for the cases the day before that prosecution occurred against Donald Trump.

They were visiting with Joe Biden. So so he projects on to them what he actually does and And The point is with that is to notice that these departments go back ten years.

I mean before Donald Trump was in office. I Mean, I'm surprised he didn't pardon every single person that worked at the

White House Let's not forget This was an administration where coke balloons and cocaine were found in the

White House Where there were two men having anal sex on the Capitol floor and recorded it and it got leaked

I mean the list goes on and on of the things that happened at this White House under Joe Biden and whoever was running the

Country for the last four years But if you want to see a fun video really quickly go to real DMW podcast on my ex account and there's a six -minute mashup

Of everyone from MSNBC and and CNN saying in the late Trump presidency

Oh my gosh Why would you pardon anyone if you're if you're not guilty and then at the end of it? Of course, it shows the pardon of the entire

Biden family. Yeah So what do you have you have a case where there's projection you you you put you put on to the other person

What you're gonna do, right? So you say oh, I'm doing this That person's gonna do that.

But what you're actually doing is The very thing you're accusing the other person of so I bring that together and I know he's backstage, but I'm gonna

I'm gonna say With a debate we're gonna talk about you got to see Tim Whitaker do the exact same thing

He projects upon Kennington. He's like he's cracking up back there He he does the exact same thing he accuses

Kennington of what he actually does So now that he's back there, we'll have a lot of fun discussing that.

Let me bring in Kenton Kenna what's your last name? You'd have to unmute yourself though that usually

Yeah, Kenton little Kenton little. Yeah. All right, so you're not big my name matches my stature quite accurately

Okay, well you look taller 5 '6 Okay Well Brewster is a

Brewster. So yeah, he's he's just like, you know with five five different black belts and Tim Whitaker sir, welcome

Hello, Andrew spent and what 15 20 years. Yes, so so So I was so we talked about the projecting so I bring you in I'm gonna read

The exchange I want to read a text exchange I had this morning with Greg because well it was it was kind of funny

So I and I will say for the for audience in case these guys both came in they came in last -minute

Tim is I believe at a conference. So the fact that he's in we appreciate Although I do enjoy this to be fair Yeah, so I you know the the point being is

I did not give them I said to Greg like a lot like last night Like 24 hours ago.

I said hey you want to you know, invite the other guys on And so to which he sent me a text that says from Tim and Kentington and he shows this text thing

He says Tim says you hate him. Lol. So this is what what Tim said?

He said haha. He hates me I went to his church as a kid Tell him to unblock me and talk to me like an adult

Lol to which my wrist to my response and I don't know if you saw my response was so let me get this straight

He will not come on the show to talk to me as an adult because I blocked him

Please ask him to explain Which one of us is acting like a little child and trying to get his way and refusing to talk

Talk to me publicly Andrew, but you've locked me on all social media. I'll talk to me privately but Well, you know blocking people on social media it doesn't mean you know, there's plenty of ways to communicate so it's just There went

Greg. What happened Greg? He vanished One question I was

I was curious it's a real question you you mentioned that I'm a progressive just you want to ask me a Second question. Yeah Mentioned I'm a progressive

Christian. I'm just wondering for you. What does that mean? Like how am I a progressive Christian? Well, it was a term you used in the debate.

So do you deny what you said? I'm assuming I haven't

I haven't I haven't seen you in literally 15 years It's the first time in a while, but I'm assuming based on what you do my condolences that you got to see this face again

I'm assuming that you're not a fan of progressive Christians I'm just wondering like how you think about what it is that makes me progressive

Yeah, well progressive Christians are those who I would say let culture interpret Scripture and they're they're not

Christians But we so let me let me ask this actually it was a question that I that I did have when

I watched the debate so since you here I can ask you and because I was you know, cuz I know you may have to go so Could you and I think

Kenton asked you this or mentioned it? That's what got me to think about it Could you define what the gospel is?

Means good news good news of Christ But what is what's the gospel message that ultimately

Christ is reconciling the cosmos. It's the good news What does that mean

What I just said that the crooked will be made straight at some point in the future That God has made a way for us to be reconciled and to partner with his good creation bringing heaven on earth instead of hell on earth

Well, what is what is the way that we get that we do you have reconciliation like how do we get reconciled?

Well, I mean you want to ask how the Calvinist thinks that or how the Arminius thinks that right? I mean that people debate this exact thing

I believe it means having a radical allegiance to Jesus and I quote Matthew Bates his book radical allegiance where he

Argues that the word faith is better interpreted allegiance And that's those who have allegiance to the way of Jesus that participate with Christ in his work on earth

That are part of the plan to reconcile all things back to himself and that includes grace that includes forgiveness that includes understanding all that But I definitely have walked away from the framework that I grew up with that You know if you prayed this prayer, you won't burn in hell one day.

You'll go to heaven one day that idea I think isn't really captured in the Gospels or ultimately what we're really talking about I mean even

NT Wright would argue it's about a new a new earth not really heaven. So that's kind of how I think about it.

So You Do you believe at at birth that we are

Enemies of God do we are we at a point before? Whatever, you might call salvation. Are we enemies of God?

No, I reject that framework I believe that we have the choice every day to partner with God in his wisdom or to partner with their own desires that bring

Chaos on earth. So I do reject a Calvinist total depravity framework notice. I haven't mentioned anything about Calvinism yet Yeah, I know.

I'm sure we're gonna get there And I don't think anything Calvinism either my question is we're not enemies of God.

Why do we need to be reconciled to him? Well because we participate in sin all the time, right we we cause damage

We're we cause separation from ourselves and from our Creator. Absolutely doesn't mean that we're naturally an enemy

We can choose every day which way we want to go with that okay, so so When you say a

Christian, how does someone become a Christian? By giving allegiance to the way of Jesus.

What does that mean? You read? Okay, so we look at the Beatitudes We look at what Jesus says in Matthew, right those who do the will of the

Father, etc And we look at what he teaches we become disciples of Christ following in his footsteps by participating in The work of Christ that he can he is brought on to his disciples that we continue on Okay, so is there a point in time when someone is not a

Christian becomes a Christian Because what you said is something that can come and go I mean someone can give allegiance and not give allegiance and just Become a

Christian lose it. I think people can walk away from the faith. I didn't say walk away from faith I think that people can stop being a

Christian they can stop being a Christian. Yes, they can give their allegiance to Jesus They can revoke that allegiance to Jesus Okay.

So is it about? Getting right with God as far as are you talking about like in like a spiritual sense of like I repent of my sins

Well in a sense of atonement as we would see in Leviticus. Yeah, I mean I definitely

Reject penal substitutionary atonement. I have more of a healing atonement theory at this point in my theological journey

That Christ sacrifices is the antidote for sin the virus that's taking over what God called at one point good

But certainly we are agents at times of that sin, right? I mean we look around the world There's tons of chaos humans create that chaos

We create damage all over the earth and certainly repentance to turn and go the other way from that sin is key to the

Christian faith Okay, and I know I'm asking all the questions, but I have something

I'm curious of while you're here. And so Do you believe

Let me ask this. Why did Christ have to die? Why did Christ have to die? Yeah Well, I mean like I said

I offer the healing atonement theory for this that Christ that Christ sacrifice is the antidote for Being able to heal the world of sin once and for all now process was started with his death and of course resurrection which

I do affirm Okay, how does his death? Bring that healing like what's special about his death that would bring the healing the resurrection, right?

There's the death and of course the resurrection that that death doesn't have the final saying then again as as Christians We look forward to the day where we're resurrected again

And that death is not the final say in what God called good So I believe as a Christian my call is to participate in that in the here and now hoping of course

It's it's that tension right of like the here But not yet this idea like we want to be part of this kingdom of God that we're trying to realize on earth as Christ Followers and also realizing that ultimately we're never gonna fully accomplish that but we look forward to the day when

Christ comes back and Reconciles the cosmos back to himself all the crooked sin of the world is made straight again

And we're able to go to code rule with God the way they was intended to be a creation Okay, can

I jump in here? Cuz I'm confused a little bit. So I just want to me. Hey Tim. Nice to see you again

Oh, yeah, I was having all kinds of video and audio as you said I gotta

I gotta play this since you said that here here was it, you know, Kennington put this comment up Greg Definitely raptured.

He he was the only true Christian in the bunch. He's back now. So I guess not yeah

He'd look it up on Wikipedia that makes Wikipedia isn't a good theological source for a debate

Andrew So, I'm just I want to see where you're coming from Tim because I I know some guys like you and I know some guys

Who and I don't know if you want me to label you as you know deconstructed but in this vein of kind of company

I heard kind of your story when we did the debate of coming out of Of a Christian home and kind of re -examining some things

I think what did you say was in your 20s or was it early? I had a Christian fundamentalism. I Renegotiated my faith seriously, maybe a few years ago, but ever since 2016

I kind of on that path. Okay, so so to kind of reiterate Andrew's question because I'm very interested in this is why is the resurrection important if if if if sin

Doesn't automatically make us an enemy of God Which I find laughable if I had someone who was pillaging my house and raping my wife and beating my kids and stealing from me

I'd go. Well, it's a pretty nice guy, but it's it's just a virus. He'll get over I go no guys my enemy until I can something can change so and it's not a

Calvinist view I mean We know original sin was talked about well before Calvin came or came around but my point is why is

Christ Resurrection important then what what what does that magical thing that antidote that you're talking about do for sin?

That death doesn't have the final sting right sin gives birth to death. Do we all agree on that? Isn't that the problem of sin it gives birth to death.

That's what that's what st Paul says in the scriptures So the resurrection is the symbol that God conquers death and how does he do that?

By giving into death ironically but and so as the Christian the hope is that we one day will be able to be part of that world where death does

Not have the final sting where sin does not reign over right the human condition or the or creation, etc

So and I want to be clear. I'm not saying that I mean I want to be charitable here, especially on your show

Maybe I misinterpreted what you were saying, which I want to own but I was under the impression that what you were saying is like when you're born you're born naturally as in like a

Permanent stasis an enemy of God and what I would say is that we have as humans the ability to do great

Good and great bad I mean we can look at human civilization civil Civilization see people have done really great things with their lives and have had good moments and I've had really bad moments

I've caused a lot of damage So I don't think it's it's a stasis of like I'm I'm all bad or I'm all good at any given time

I mean, this is just Today I can do good and bad if I can if I can jump in here real quick because I think and by the way, um

Tim, my name is Aaron. I watched uh your debate earlier and I want to share with you at some point

Maybe uh before you go, uh the text I sent to uh to andrew Uh before uh before all this happened um but anyway so I I still like actually

I want to kind of be the third guy to kind of reiterate what andrew has asked and now Then greg just asked because if i'm hearing you correctly you're suggesting and correct me if i'm wrong that christ's death and resurrection was merely illustrative like it was merely just a a picture of a bigger reality um when when we would say that his

His death was efficacious his death and his resurrection did something like it accomplished something

Am I hearing that you're saying it didn't accomplish something? It was just a it was just kind of like a picture like a flannel graph kind of kind of an idea

Well, I well, I mean, I I believe that christ physically rose again from the dead to be clear I don't think it's of course.

Yeah, so i'm gonna put that out there because progressive christians, you know People can think I think it's all I don't think that I believe in a physical resurrection

What i'm saying is that my understanding and I want to be clear. This isn't like a new understanding in my mind

I think i've always believed this even growing up in different spaces is that the resurrection signifies

Again that like death this thing that is taking over Does not have the final say in the believer's life that one day we will live again.

So but that word signifies Did it did I did I get the right idea though? Like you're saying it signifies it it images it it you believe that it happened, but it happened as As kind of like a signpost and a neon light to the world that this can happen to you, too

But it didn't accomplish anything more than just to signify than just to image. Well, I believe it

Okay, I think I understand what you're saying in my opinion in my view the resurrection signified that The rule of god is happening that it is coming that the kingdom is coming.

But again here but not yet So that's how I kind of think about it Yeah, okay, I guess

I would just push back and I think oh I guess andrew and greg, uh can can tell me if they agree with me on this

I think and kenton too i'm assuming probably as well We our our position would be uh that you know christ death and resurrection

Were a necessary Uh, nothing nobody could be saved had it not happened

Uh, and therefore it actually accomplished something in the act of it in the death and in the resurrection

Yes, it signifies things. Yes. It's illustrative of many things for sure, but had it not happened

Mankind could not be reconciled with god. It was an efficacious work that he did So that's why I asked the question to understand

Where you are because it seems that you you're you don't believe it accomplished anything much more than just a hey

Look at this. This can be you too. Oh, i'm sorry. Um Yeah to be clear. Um, no,

I think that it was necessary like I that last part you just said I would agree with Okay, so I think that was the question if I if i'm right andrew and greg

I think that's the question that they were asking Why was it necessary? Why did jesus have to die and raise again?

Like what did it actually? Accomplish in the warp and woof of humanity to make it possible so we can be reconciled

Well, it made a way for us to reconcile it back to our creator, right? It's the whole point of it via and what

I and i'm not asking this. I don't want to be a jerk in any way shape or form. I'm just asking for clarification And what is that way like how how it does that happen

I guess is maybe the question You're telling how does someone participate in that? Yeah by giving allegiance to the way of the crucified jesus that rose again

I mean that's back to i'm being honest like you you thought you'd become a disciple a follower Of jesus by giving your loyalty not to the empire, right?

Not to culture, but to the way of jesus So I would start with the gospel accounts the beatitudes What did he actually teach and I would start there and then work outward that that's what

I couldn't That couldn't happen if christ hadn't died What do you mean that like someone couldn't be a follower of jesus?

Yeah, jesus hadn't died and rose again. Well, someone could everything else Had his ministry teach the attitudes interpreted the law did everything else but didn't die and rise again could we still give allegiance to a

Well, yeah, we can give allegiance to anyone right people give allegiance to politicians that that's a possibility I give my life to the same risen and a crucified and risen messiah.

That's who I give my allegiance to but If someone was a follower of jesus And he had not died and risen again

Would that allegiance to him reconcile them to god? I I I would imagine well

Obviously it happens to the christian believes that that's the case So it's a hypothetical that I can't answer because we know that it happened or we believe that it happened

And that's our answer to that question If if if he didn't i'm sure there'd be a different religion That we'd probably be a part of that would claim a different thing

But as a christian I affirm and believe that to be reconciled back to your creator It goes through the crucified and risen christ

And I don't want to be I don't want to be short I only have so much time if you want to ask christian nationals questions, too We can do that.

I just don't know how long you guys want to go on this. I'm happy Well, can I share with him the text I sent to you? Yeah, go for it.

Okay um, so Right after finishing the video. I immediately texted him and I said oh man

We're gonna have it's just gonna be so much fun tonight. I said half of that debate was an absolute dumpster fire

And the other half I disagree with I wrote this to him and I sent a smiley face along with it as well

So that kind of puts both of you in the position of like, okay Well, which one which half did he think was a dumpster fire and which half did he disagree with and what?

What and here's and here's the thing. I want you to know tim so you and I have I mean, I would love to be in the same room with you because Our our relationship

I think would be Just so complex in so many beautiful ways A I was brought up homeschooled, uh in the fundamental independent fundamentalism.

However, I still consider myself a fundamentalist Um, i'm also not a covenant theologian.

Okay, so that kind of puts me in an interesting position, uh with some people here I uh

I completely agree with your argument So I completely agree with uh with your argument against christian nationalism,

I think that some of your arguments Uh were were spot on But others of them

I was just like oh that that was the dumpster fire for me That you were bringing some of these arguments and saying some of these things within the context of the debate

Kenton, I I i'm not a christian nationalist. I I I I don't agree with it Um, but I also really appreciate a lot of things that you said and I found myself back and forth the whole time like Like applauding both of you and other times being like, oh, come on Why'd you have to so I mean,

I mean in so many ways I I honestly would love to to get to know more you guys better.

Uh, just because I think that our our our Trajectories have so much in common and yet so disparate as as we go along um

But I want andrew to jump back in here because i've been taking a lot of time But I guess and I know you you need to leave too.

So andrew consider if this is maybe something you want to talk about One of the things that really stuck out to me is you kept talking about the love of god, right?

I love of jesus in particular and You you kept uh saying that basically, you know, you can't be a christian nationalist

And and claim to love god because you're attacking people and you have authority over these people and so on and so forth

My my question is though Your how you defined jesus's love was categorically different as I understand

Love from the scriptures. Uh, jesus says love in particular the love that he calls us to have the love that we can have because He had it for us so i'm really really really interested in how you actually

Like define love and how you can support that from the scriptures that that is the definition of love

Um My general argument in the debate with kent which by the way kent it's good to see you again I do appreciate you talking to me on on on the debate a lot of christian nationalists

And this is not a shot at andrew because we already talked about it But a lot of other people will block me and won't talk to me. It's very annoying because I will talk to almost anyone

Point hopefully is here. Um, my my general thesis is that christian nationalism

Inherently goes against the teachings of jesus Jesus says blessed are the meek christian nationalism says blessed are the powerful jesus says love your enemy christian nationalism says

No, you should crucify your enemy, etc So my point I don't think I said love of god or that you can't love god

I don't think that I think that christian nationalists a are real christians. I think that they do think that they're loving god

I think it's incompatible with the teachings of jesus as laid out in the gospel accounts In particular, there's some of the most core teachings the sermon on the mount in particular

I was kind of psyched because those are the core teachings of jesus and I am a little christ. I'm a follower of christ

So the examples that you brought up in particular about this was uh if if a christian nationalist were to take somebody

Like an atheist or someone who had abortion or homosexual and I know kenton does not prescribe to this But take those people and then throw them into jail, right?

Wrote the book the case for christian nationals and that's his you said that would not be love Uh, that would not be loving to throw an atheist in prison for being an atheist.

That's correct Okay. Okay, so we'd be loving for throwing a drug dealer in Jail for being a drug dealer, uh for sure because they're causing so much damage to their community

I mean, I think andrew you're an apologetic. That's a false equivocation, right? My point i'm going to be very clear about this

Stephen wolf who wrote the book the case for christian nationalism says publicly that under his rule

We enforce blasphemy laws, which by the way does violate the first amendment But whatever and that the atheists is thrown in prison for being an atheist

So that that in particular that what he said i'm not making that up that particular point to me

Does not benefit a society of people point Who is dealing drugs in his neighborhood or her neighborhood and hurting people

Putting them in prison would actually benefit societies. It would stop drugs from being dealt around So here's my logical conclusion because i'm hearing what you're saying and again i'm not arguing christian nationalism

I don't I am not a christian nationalist. I don't agree with it. Okay, so i'm not arguing that but when I read the scriptures and I Might want my answers really as a christian speaking into this to have to come from the scriptures and not just come from the constitution

Or or you know our republic or whatever the case may be When I look at the scriptures what I see is that god uses lots of different words to describe sin

And the strongest words he uses to describe Uh, the strongest words he has for sin are used in particular of Idolatry, uh, which is sometimes called spiritual adultery, uh worshipping another god so on and so forth so yes

And the orphan and the widow that those are the other big things he has a very strong language exactly 100 yeah abomination for sure

Yeah, of course Yeah, of course but Um, i'm i'm a biblical counselor.

I work with addicts. I see what drugs do in a society, right? It's bad Yeah, biblically speaking though What we see is that?

Idolatry is infinitely worse idolatry is Is is really at the root at the core of every other sin if i'm worshiping self

I am going to commit every sin in the book, right? So it is the veritable sin from which all sins grow.

So to make the argument that an atheist which Yes, i'm going to make some assumptions that that atheist is not a closet atheist that there's teaching that there's you know

There he lives in a lustrative lifestyle and so on and so forth Actually is biblically speaking an exceptionally dangerous thing because what it's doing is it's lying.

It's lying to the world It's leaving people away from the truth. It's encouraging people to be like him, which is an idolater

And I would say that's really bad. What do you think? So a couple questions here make sure I understand so the general argument that I hear you saying is that How you understand the bible's idolatry is the the gravest most most intense sin one can possibly commit with the most amount of consequences

All problems in the world are caused from idolatry of the self And therefore an atheist who would be preaching

I guess about self is more dangerous than a drug dealer dealing heroin in his neighborhood And maybe should be put in prison for because of that.

Is that kind of line of reasoning? Before you answer Aaron just and we do this we do this tim so I want to stop and just for the audience to point out what tim just did and you've seen a couple times with different people but Because this is we're here to teach how to do apologetics.

What did tim do? Tim stopped Aaron For clarifying questions.

This is very important to do when we do apologetics If you don't understand what the person you're talking to is saying what they mean by the words that they're using then

You're going to talk past one another so what are you seeing go on right here you're seeing that tim is going okay

Let me clarify Gives what he what did he do? He rehearsed what he thinks he heard

And then asked is this what you're saying? Very important to do things like this folks when you do apologetics

Aaron, go ahead. I will take that which is exactly Which is exactly the reason that I wanted to to get in and understand this idea of love too

It was really important because I think you know We can both all talk about love and be talking past each other because our definitions are so different down to your point though Um, I think

I could agree with 99 % of the way you worded it. Um, I would say that spiritually speaking

Yes, I mean physically speaking, of course Um one could argue that drugs, you know, they they ravage people and so on and so forth and they destroy communities um, but spiritually speaking, uh the drug dealers

First and foremost main issue is not the drugs the drugs are secondary tertiary Quadertiary things in his life the the main thing that's going to have him end up and spend eternity in a lake of fire

Separated from god Is the fact that he is not worshiping god and I also know christians.

I know christians who struggle with uh with with drug addiction Um, so and i'm helping those people through that Um, so I would say that a christian who's in that sin, right?

Um, that's also a unique thing to consider is is the christian who's in in involved in drugs

Um in the same spiritual desperate position that the atheist is. Um, I would argue no, he's not

Um, so I does that is that clarify? Do you do you think that you had the right understanding of what I was saying? I believe that makes sense.

Can I ask a follow -up question now because I I think I understand I don't I don't misrepresent you. So what i'm I guess what i'm asking you ultimately is in society like in american society, right that would it be in this at this moment ruled by a constitution that Has a very strong first amendment many people especially right -wing organizations, right?

They're all about the free speech thing Um, so are you saying that that you would advocate for?

Saying hey if if I was in charge of this american society I would also be in favor of something that would also mitigate

Uh the atheist just for being an atheist because no my belief is those things. Okay, that's what

I mean. That's a question Yeah, that's a christian national Like hey, I have this view I understands my view versus like now everyone else has to assimilate into said view

Correct. Yeah. No, I I yeah, I think it was mentioned on the show I think greg actually may have said it on his show that uh, all right kenton probably did too.

You can't force anybody You can't legislate Uh true heart change, right? So so no, that's that's not what i'm born history by constantine and that didn't go over so well

Yeah, we got the catholic church. Yeah, the reason i'm asking though is really uh, it's again tim I guess the my interesting thing is like if I were to when the time comes for kenton and I to speak

Um, you know, he and I are going to be talking from a very different perspective because i'm going to be talking about His views on christian nationalism

You I agree with for the most part that christian nationalism isn't a good thing However, I think my biggest struggle with your and this i'm keeping this really limited to the debate that I heard

My struggle with your yours the way you you went at that is that I believe that you were not being

Biblically accurate spiritually accurate with the ideas when you when you would say that A drug dealer.

Yes The most loving thing we can do for him is to throw him into jail to keep him from having that effect on the community And to keep him from having that effect on himself

Uh, that's a good thing But to say that to do whatever is necessary to keep an atheist from having that spiritual influence on a community

Well, that's okay because well we live in america and free speech Well, hold on biblically speaking I think it's very clear that we could argue from the scriptures that the a the atheist that the idolater

Is going to have a much more impactful spiritual, uh influence on people than the drug dealer in theory

Yeah this is the full circle moment where you know, we kind of get into like the never -ending argument of what i'm going to say to That is of course is that we're all we every christian

I know is debating what the bible says and doesn't say and so I understand that term This is biblical, but that dies at death by a thousand to one qualifications depending on the tradition

You're in who you're talking to etc And that was kind of my challenge for kenton that and you know I don't want to bring kent if you want to be great

But one of my questions to him and maybe andrew whoever wants to answer this is What are god's laws that we're talking about that?

Like what's the list here and like how are we picking and choosing in the bible? Which laws are being enacted and which ones aren't under christian nationalism?

And I think if we ask that question to all five of us All five of us would probably have a different answer about what we think is the biblical answer to that And so I just think ultimately this notion of biblical just by observation

Just by observation of even conservative evangelical christianity Uh, layton flowers and james white is a great example of that, right?

They both argue that they had the biblical position and they go around around around Trying to give the proof text and the proof is why everyone's wrong

And they're still trying to claim that they both are are being more accurate than the other one It's it's it's a it's a it's a never -ending circle.

So It's easy to answer out of the five of us out of the five of us i'm the one that's right that's what's the problem

But that's kind of my point though is and I don't want to get into the weeds So forgive me and if i'm if i'm overstepping my bounds andrew just let me know it's your show

I respect that but I hear I grew up in an environment that gave me this framework of saying the bible is objectively true

And here's how you interpret it or well, they wouldn't say it that way They would just say this is the this is what the bible clearly teaches the bible's objective truth

Just do this you're saying on objective truth and then what happened in my life And this is early on was

I was attending a very conservative more reformed baptist church And then I went to a more charismatic church that was like no women can lead

Oh, no, tim. That's objectively true too in the same in the same bible and here's our arguments for it And I realized very quickly that this claim that we're standing on the objective truth of god's word dies the death of a thousand qualifications

Depending on what tradition of the christian of the christian house you're in and that's

Hope let me jump into that for a bit so The the issue is it comes down to our hermeneutic and and they said for the audience, okay um

It looks like this is four on one. Okay Tim that has no problem with this

All right. So I I know something about him and his family. I I he's he's not gonna mind

He he likes the discussion. So first for that's first second. I should Answer very quickly.

It's it's three on two the beards versus the no bear We're winning I have a beard.

It is just very short right now Okay, but I didn't mean to interrupt so short.

You can't see it. Hey You know before christmas my beard was a bit longer than yours So I had a more reformed beard, but I was going to keep it for the february conference

But since it got canceled I shaved so I was gonna get that conference. You look like a jewish santa claus.

I yeah, there you go Everyone said I look like santa claus man So so and I should say for the record for anyone watching the video

Tim put his name there not me So when it says progressive heretic tim whittaker progressive heretic

You just want I I put I I removed the banner so they would show up so people would see I did not do that Okay Okay, so so I mean i'm saying that he he he can handle

The discussion even if it's four on one or three beards Against one beard and you know the one jewish guy who's right, um

But Um, so it comes down to harmonetics. It comes down to what are what are going to be rules of interpretation?

All right, so we we are going to have disagreements there tim. I would I would argue though, you know something like um

Sound like you brought and maybe we could get a fuller discussion on that is the women preaching When we look at the at grammar, which is how we understand language

There really is it's really clear because it's based in creation. Now. I know you got to go shortly um

I I wanted to say one thing about the debate Uh, and we had a question that came up for you and I figured let me just say this

So one of the things I saw we in the debate with you um Is you did a lot and I don't know if you realize and I'd encourage you to go back and and look

A lot of your argumentation was by example rather than by scripture and so in doing so it it

Creates an emotional and this is I wanted to bring this up because folks when you when you watch debates You will see people that will the latent flowers is a great example of this

He'll take a parable and start expounding the parable in a meaning that it doesn't actually have

We shouldn't do that. It's an argument by else by example or illustration that it can create a very emotional response but we have to be able to put the emotion aside and say is that A good response a logical response a biblical response in this case since we're debating arguing what the bible says um

So, you know, uh, and I'll also say this very quick very quickly I I you know,

I can't believe i'm doing this but i'm going to defend tim here a little bit though When you talk about and I love you tim, um,

I disagree with 95 percent of what you're saying, but I love you. Uh, but also You're saying a parable in hermeneutic

It's so important because look at it goes to what tim said I can read a parable and then read A fawcett and brown commentary a matthew henry commentary a guzik commentary and they all three will have a different meaning of what the parable was so So I do understand where he's coming from in that I think

Well, he wasn't doing the parables that was I used that example with layton, but it's like When it when it's a parable example, it's pretty close to a parable.

That's what christ did a lot Yeah, because the parable is to support the main thing and what when we start looking at you know

Well, the second son meet it represents this and you know, and you start digging into it more than the main point It becomes a problem tim.

You're gonna say something. Do you mind if I just respond to that andrew? I can't answer that there are two reasons why

I didn't I guess quote a lot of scripture The first one was the thesis of the debate is christian nationalism good for society christian nationalism is the word here

Okay, so I wanted to answer that question by giving examples of why I didn't think it was good for society but the other thing is is that you know,

I mean And I mean, I would love your response to this. I really would There are I can cite

I mean james five Now listen you rich people Weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you your wealth has rotted and mobs have eaten your clothes

Your gold and silver are corroded their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire You have hoarded wealth in the last days

Look the wages you failed to pay to the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you etc I could quote that and be like look guys

The bible doesn't really support the idea of billionaires because they're hoarding their wealth and usually you accumulate that money by not paying your people

A fair wage and so I could I could that would be a horrible hermeneutic though because you're taking one

It really wouldn't be if you look at the whole stream of the bible what proverb says about riches and wealth And what james says about it and what christ says about it what his parable says about giving uh,

Giving workers the wage that you agreed to not setting up You mean when christ says that it's harder for a rich man out of the kingdom is for a camel to go through the eye

Of a needle. I mean, this is the thing Hold on I mean, that's just And this is this is the million dollar point.

I think it's worth pointing out What you've done is you've given your you're playing by rules of hermeneutic rules that you have

You're saying that because I read the bible plainly and you're like well that doesn't say what you think it says and then you actually

Reinterpret some of those verses based on your hermeneutic and then tell me that i'm the one who's reading culture into the bible

No I can give you 25 passages on why you shouldn't probably deport immigrants because the bible says so but this is my whole point

It's like On on christ upholding the courts and upholding uh boundaries within a country.

Yeah, but then you would argue I bet hold on I bet you would argue though that things like what happened during covid

When the courts upheld certain things that you disagree with would not be biblical I mean, I I watch

I watch I have watched for almost a decade even to little christians Rewrite their own theology to support things that they would never have supported 15 years ago

Like when bill clinton had the affair in the white house and trump's brags about grabbing women And they have a whole different way for how they justify why trump's still good and clinton's still bad.

So There is a big difference there because what Don't use those people what trump did was 40 years ago 30 years ago.

And what clinton did was present day Oh, so so sin. So so when the wages of sin matters being on the time frame and then no, no, no

For sexually assaulting a woman, I believe in repentance We're Has trump repented for grabbing women?

Huh? What trump hasn't repented? There's no evidence. He actually did it and actually when you see when you watch the video

You watch his body language in the video. You see that he he pushes the the one male reporter between him and the woman so Of sexually assaulting a woman last year

That it's it's no Yeah, because i'm gonna argue with that. Did you actually see the case and listen to the case?

So we should we should talk about that. Andrew. Andrew was the let me ask you one more question. I'll i'll i'll stop Yeah, what is it?

Was the 2020 election stolen or not? Was it a free and fair election? Was it stolen? I know it definitely wasn't a free and fair election.

There was there was I I Andrew I I this is Okay, let me ask you this was the 2016 elections there

Fair and corrupt What was it? Which yeah, yeah, it was fair really

Before you go that perhaps I am blown away but you think that Yeah, I could give you

I could give you the reasons. Kensington wants to talk. Hold up We're all bad. I do have a question for you. Tim before you go Based on on on what you know of them.

Would you consider andrew and aaron christian nationalists? I honestly I don't

I mean andrew I I really mean I haven't talked to you It's been 15 maybe 16 years.

I don't know. I don't know What's up, we talked online and then I had to block you because you were filling up my wall

I I don't know what andrew would believe I mean Maybe we could talk about it again on the show and you'd be happy to discuss about it discuss it with you and talk about the 2020 election

Jeez, I mean how do you how do you Detective truth So, I know you

I know you gotta go and I know we got the thing let me ask you one question um, why was kamala harris not why was she in the dnc when she was going to be voted in as vice president and not in the

In this senate at the time that she was going to make history And why was there a bomb outside the dnc?

You know anything about that, can you read i'm, sorry ask the question again, I didn't really get why was why was

Harris not in the senate when she's about to be Confirmed as vice president the first black woman vice president

Why why was she at the dnc where there was a fake bomb? there Do you know anything about that?

No, is that your evidence that january 6th was an inside job. Oh, yeah, because it was because they had it staged

May may I may tim I want to This is kind of triggering this live stream has derailed

Triggered the liberal i'm triggered i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna pause everyone there for a moment. Here's a question from calculus man

Uh, and then I got one more question for for tim. So a question for tim. He said What what about folks who are in other religions do muslims?

Jews catholics, etc Need to follow jesus or are you saying they're okay to stay in their own religion system?

I love how catholics is in there That's okay Well catholics would say that that what we believe is anathema

They would say that we're cursed to hell then you would say the same thing and then you both point the finger at this Problem I don't have a problem with saying

My belief about like the about like I mean ultimately I think that this question is asking also like when we die

What happens right? Like do we go to heaven or hell? That's kind of like what this all kind of boils down to I think that i'm still kind of actually asking myself these questions what this means

I kind of hold to an annihilationist perspective of I reject eternal conscious torment Um universal reconciliation i'm attracted to but I never want to share a a hammock with hitler.

I don't like that idea and so Annihilationism is kind of like the in -between for me of like there's still a sense of justice and finality for people who really do so Much damage and there's also the hope of reconciliation

I don't know how it works with people with different faith religions and what happens when they die

I do know that I have plenty of friends and all these traditions do a lot of good in the world And I would argue

Find some ways follow the teachings of jesus more closely But some of my own christian friends when it comes to loving their their neighbors and loving their enemies, etc

But i'm still working through it. I don't have answers. The question is do they need to follow jesus?

Or are they okay in their own religion system? Why um, do they need to follow jesus in order to what to not burn in hell forever?

Like what what for what what would be the need? Well, you were saying that we need to give allegiance to god

So as a christian I give allegiance to the way of jesus you said in order to have reconciliation with god

We need to follow the ways of jesus. I said all things go through jesus He'll be reconciled that jesus reconciles everything through the cosmos.

Yes The way of jesus to have reconciliation with god I think that you can my and that's the thing is

I keep going back to the teachings of jesus Can someone do that without actually claiming to be a christ follower?

I don't know Jesus didn't say that was his teaching. I'm the way the truth and the life No one comes he wasn't talking about eternal conscience for him, right?

That's that's about her wildly debunked I'm talking about reconciliation

You said you need to show allegiance to christ have reconciliation to god. Jesus says to have reconciliation

No man comes to the father except through me through allegiance to me And now when someone asks you do muslims and jews and people of religions need to leave that you go

Well, i'm kind of up in the air on that. I'm working through it. I'm not sure I respect that but then you can't claim allegiance to christ and his teachings

If you then say i'm up in the air on some of the things he says that's not true because One at a time one at a time one time let him respond to greg

I don't have a response. It's something i'm still working through. You know, I haven't asked this question for a long time I don't know

But actually the the point I wanted to bring up and the question I wanted to ask was actually to help you formulate the answer to greg um when the show opened, um

Andrew was talking about projection, right? And there have been a couple times in this talk that you have specifically said you guys

When you're talking about hermeneutic and how we interpret the scriptures and things like that And you were like you you guys you read the bible and you say this and you say this and you say this

You exempted yourself From that category like somehow when you read the bible

You're not doing whatever it is that you're claiming that we're doing when you said that And He doesn't know what our positions are

But yeah, but I would admit though. I would admit that that that my culture my historical context

Does affect how I understand and read the bible like I had no problem saying that I said it many times So I would make the observation as well that you keep saying

I don't know what I believe about that. I don't know what I think about that I don't and so so actually what

I think is really interesting is that you've got guys who are taking the scriptures And who I think for the most part we agree and I maybe know this because I know them a little bit better I I could assume that kenton would say this as well that we want the scriptures to interpret the scriptures

We say that you push back. Yeah. Well, you guys just read and find out and if five of you all have different five different Okay but At least what we're doing is we're trying to take the scriptures and making certain that the scriptures are agreeing with scriptures

So that when we're talking about the rich man, we're looking at a biblical understanding of riches across the spectrum

Whereas you seem to come back to your own understanding your own ability to figure it out your own

What seems good to you? What kind of seems like something that you might like to be the truth?

And i'm just interesting that you project onto us that we're ripping things out of context as we read the scriptures

But I i'm not hearing you do anything different In fact what i'm hearing you do is that even more so because you're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture.

Yeah Yeah, well, that's exactly my point is that what and I said this again I think in our debate is that all of us whether we realize it or not

Do have some kind of bias that we bring to anything that we read including the scriptures, right?

We're a product of modern america in 2024 We are in a capitalist society.

We are individualists and the the bible was not written In that context and but do you believe the bible only has one understanding?

What um, no, I think it's a multiplicity of understandings you think when god wrote it he Wrote the bible then we assign that guy

Well, that's an important distinction though, because god did not magically write the bible right people when he inspired the bible

Well, yeah when he when he inspired it when he breathed it Okay, when he breathed that is an assumption you put on to the text which you can do

But it's not it's not it's not inherent to the text That actually Guys we all know we all know that the new testament wasn't canonized when paul

Well, you think paul wrote that part of the scripture, right? Yeah, that was something you said in the debate that's so wrong

It's actually true. I mean Why did all the jewish people know that genesis was scripture

Why peter why could peter refer to what paul writes as scripture? Why is it that that Luke can refer to something in the old testament and in the new and call it scripture

Andrew, we all know that what you that passage about in first. Timothy I think it is right where it says all scriptures god breathed first off that it doesn't say god inerrant

I but I digress god read that when that was written The new testament was not written yet entirely and it wasn't canonized yet And even if you take what peter says about paul's letters

There are other books in the bible that paul didn't write that we still canonize and then you have the problem Of the catholic scriptures these unorthodox scriptures.

This is a huge discussion and debate You are more than welcome to assign whatever value you want to the protestant english bible and call it inerrant

Or god breathed that doesn't mean that it actually is on its face Okay, that's for folks for folks watching just so we can we can illustrate

Notice I want you guys to notice what? Tim is doing there He's saying we all know and then says something that Three of us just kind of said no, we don't agree with right.

We don't all know because we don't agree with it. We we don't Argue that we argue that with a scripture that was written.

It was clear at the time that it was scripture so when when timothy when when paul writes second timothy

Uh, he is using he creates a word actually that never existed before Okay And so he says all scripture is god breathed inspired by god

It's a word he as far as we know he created because we don't see it in history So he is he is referring to the word of scripture when he says in when god says in peter that it's not

From the words of men. It's it's it's the word of god That's where we get this from can

I um, ask a clarifying question? Yeah. Yeah, and I knew I knew you got to go and I do it. Well, I keep belaboring the point

I just want to respect your time. I just I as you can tell I enjoy debating. It's a lot of fun I know you're terrible at it, which is why you should be here.

Uh, Um, are is what you're saying? And again, I do want to reset it back.

So i'm gonna try not to misunderstand So what you're saying is that when paul wrote that he had the modern english protestant bible in mind

And not his own hebrew scriptures when he wrote that all scripture is god -breathed when he says scripture Is he referring to the bible we have today or to the jewish bible?

He's he's referring to the jewish bible that was written and the greek parts that had already been written

I just got the word I'd do too. I would say he's referring to that which has been That would be that by god which would be anything that was written to that point

So, I mean peter peter can recognize that what paul wrote is scripture at the time that peter's writing

He didn't need a church or anything else The scriptures were immediately known to be scripture

By folks, well, let's not forget the new testament 40 of it is just requoting the old testament as well

That's a fun little fact I'm gonna have to check that if it's Not probably not quotes but illusions and things then

I might Not necessarily word for word, but you know, yeah. Yeah. Well, that's where you get a quotes illusions.

Yeah so so all right tim, I You know one thing I don't let me just double check make sure there's no other questions for folks here um, and and so you

I think it would be fun to um, You know, I I don't want to debate politics here.

We could have a lot of fun with that privately. Um, but Yeah, because yeah, it'd be a bunch of things.

You just don't know watching the Mainstream media, but andrew, you know, I go to right -wing events, right? I go to america fest every year

I know charlie kirk personally, so I I keep track of what's going on Hey, really quick.

Can I if we're putting in a book ends on this for uh, tim jumping out here Can I go back to the very first thing we talked about and just ask him how he looks at psalm 51 5 um

Surely I was sinful at birth sinful from the time. My mother conceived me not when

I was born But when I was conceived, how i'm just and I i'm not going to argue with you And i'm just like how do you interpret that in when you read something like that?

What is that? I'll use the same framework that I hear people say whenever I talk about the rich man, uh who can't enter the kingdom

He's talking about himself there. He's not making a blanket statement for all of humanity. It's a hard issue. It's an individual statement about him so he so he's saying

I was sinful at birth Sinful from the time that I was conceived just me

Well, he's saying I not we The bible is clear Okay So every every person has a different level of sin.

They're born with them either zero to a hundred. Let's say well I mean, that's a different question. You asked me about psalm 51

So he's obviously lamenting it's obviously poetry we know psalms is is songs and poetry Uh, so I don't think that that is an answer for all humans are born sinful at birth

That's my answer I really do that approach Yeah, you have to go that's fine.

I would say So let me just do this. Um, I want to just because while you're here one last thing and I do

I do think we Have you come back? Well, let's talk about this. Uh, the first, uh, first timothy passage on women preaching.

All right, so describe I want to see if I get this right you described in the debate that you grew up in a church

That was a macarthur -like church. Very calvinistic Yes, do you hold to that So what to those views?

No, so that that's this is that description of the church you grew up in Um, the the one

I think we both went to the one in in uh in freehold howell area, new jersey. Yeah Okay, that was my understanding

So so let me i'm gonna i'm gonna put that to be fair. But yeah Yeah, so you and you would you would say that you it was a very conservative church, right?

When I was there there was a piano and hymns only. Yeah, there was I was the first drummer I was 11 So so greg, i'm gonna i'm gonna put you on the spot.

Oh great I'm gonna ask you if you think this church is conservative Or calvinistic ready?

Yeah, the pastor of the church was on the board of holy yoga. Would they be conservative?

I would tend to say no if if they're involved in yoga in any way um The pastor of the church had a new election of corporate election.

Would would they be calvinistic? No So it so you you shouldn't describe the church that way it's like no there's no pastor that I know from from paul to jeff

To joe who's there now. None of them were calvinist. They would they would have fought that I'm, not sure what to tell you man.

I mean I grew up in a tradition that taught me the tool of theology I'm, maybe it was youth group leader.

I don't know. Well, no, I'm telling you could be more you Hold on I love that.

Uh that that picture though. There's just some rogue youth group 22 year old out there teaching tulip to a bunch of my man

Yeah, it's pretty early. We're all coloring pages of tulips. Exactly. I'm in my cage stage.

We're going through You're under uh, what's that young wrestlers and reform stage, you know, I was right around there anyway, so yeah, no the the church was not

Conservative, um, I mean maybe under paul not Paul juris,

I would say yes, it probably was liberal Huh? You think it was liberal? uh, it got more and more from paul to jeff to To joe.

Yeah. Well, I wasn't there. I I never met joe. We left when jeff was oh you left before joe Okay, so that's why the look

I thought you were still there under joe So joe was the was uh on the board of holy yoga. So yeah, no, but but no jeff jeff was definitely, you know, he was not concerned he he fancied himself as a macarthurite type following after macarthur, but um

Jeff, you know, jeff didn't even he plagiarized all his sermons. That's when When you say conservative, do you mean like political or theological theological?

Oh god. Okay Hey, I know I said I gotta go. I really do. Um, hey andrew for what it's worth

It is good seeing you. Please unblock me. We can keep talking Well, we we can keep talking here because this is look this show is open to anyone anytime, right?

So you're a bold man for doing that the the yeah Greg, greg says it's like his he does an ad for it and I forget how he worded it just like it

Yeah, it's fun. Just watch andrew I never know that i'm gonna have a debate sometimes people come in if we have a guest and have a

Like if you come in we'll give you the first hour, but then we try to answer questions Um on the second hour and if people don't ask questions we just go for the full two hours

So I think it'd be fun to to do it to a discussion work our way through second timothy, too

That could be a lot of fun Really like why they're both on here. Just once again. I want to say to kenton and tim

Thank you so much for coming on and doing that and tim obviously coming into Uh, you know even like a live stream like this where you're going to disagree probably on most things with most of the guys

On here. I appreciate you doing that. I find it fun I'd love to have you back on the podcast and we just hash it up for about two three hours and Yell at each other and then find out what we're going to meet up for bourbon

I'm all about it and kenton. I'm, sorry. I hog so much of the time you barely even that's all right He's got the next he's got the next 45 minutes.

So Real quick if you oh he left I was gonna say if you if uh, he wants to get a hold of me

Um, there's the contact information info. It's driving for turn .com so, uh

Maybe you could send that I think I have I probably have his dad's number but You can say andrew.

I i'll i'll give you a little hint too Uh on x what you do is you don't necessarily have to block you just mute them mute them

Yeah, you mute them that way you can still check in see if everything's going okay But you don't have to get the 500 posts where you go.

I'm just kind of fed up with it I have a few of those I can see how tim could get to that too I've some of his stuff comes through and i'm like, oh my gosh,

I don't want to get in a four -hour argument today. So You know So you can mute just mute

Yeah, I just i'm not i'm not you don't you don't strike me as the blocking type You'll talk to anyone anywhere when he said you blocked him.

I went that doesn't seem like andrew because you know He has his lines I'll block people. Well, it's on facebook

What did you say aaron? Line in the sand, huh tim

Yeah, no the the unfa what I think if I block people on facebook It's generally because they're they're going to my wall

Or just commenting on things and you can't there's no way like I don't want to just keep deleting stuff and I can't and I see

It right and I mean I mean it's on my wall. I feel I have to respond to it Um, and so yeah, so I block people there on twitter.

I didn't know you could do the muting I guess um, i'm not as familiar with x but um

I've started switching over there. So I i'll do that because man when I with a full preterist we're in full gear

We'll talk about that in the upcoming episode. Um, I did want to get into um

The a question for him, but we didn't get you know, you guys talked about psalm 110 in the debate

And I don't know it, you know, I don't know kenny if you're going to be able to make an argument for him

Because I wanted to ask him about that too because that's one of the things when I looked back on And and watching and I was like I should have jumped all over that I I don't know what he was saying when he said my interpretation was objectively wrong

Well, okay. So the thing he did the same thing that I called him out for here was that he goes Everyone knows it's objectively wrong yeah, and and so that is a style and Well, it's a logical fallacy in and of itself when you see everyone knows right?

I can't remember the formal name for it But yeah Yeah, and and you know folks more important than knowing all the names of fallacies and you can go if you go on striving fraternity's youtube channel

I have my eight -week class on debate and logic so, you know teaching how to do debates and Uh, when we get into the logic

I explain it's it's better to know what makes a statement invalid Rather than going.

Oh, I know all the the names because most people Get the names wrong. Um speaking of logic though I think jesse's asking is that appeal to masses and it it could be

I think it's only logical now that the three of us gang up on kenton. I mean, I just Yeah, I think that would be

I think that's fair. It'd be fair. It'd be fair. Uh, melissa Melissa had said tim. Thank you for taking the time to come on tonight and you look as as you know, greg said it it takes a certain type of person who could come in and You know take on several people that he knows he would be

I mean, you know, you clearly know he knew that he was going to be disagreed with Because he put his his handle there under his name, you know as progressive heretic.

Um, so The only problem is uh, yeah, it does but we never really got any answers

It's a lot of well, I interpret it this way. I think i'm working on that Um, you know, I really would have liked to got to when he's talking about beatitudes

Just say, you know in 522 and when christ says but I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother

Shall be guilty before the court and then right after that says raka shall be before the sanhedrin

So you see christ in his beatitudes uh bringing the court system a justice system in and a religious sect in saying you those have

Those fears have authority in your life also brings in eternal judgment right the fire of hell

So So and i'm not and that's not that i'm saying i'm advocating for uh, you know We're going to behead all atheists under christian nationalism.

Like I told uh, kenton too i'm probably Um, you know,

I might be 80 of the way there, but i'm a i'm a general equity theonomist I'm a reformed presbyterian. I hold to the westminster.

I believe from 1782 to about 1820 in this country We got really darn close to a nice style of christian nationalism

Where we took the ten commandments the mosaic law and we took the general equity from them and made laws from that Starting in about 1910 to 1920.

That's where things really started to get skewed with the federal government income taxes Private, you know central banking all that kind of stuff and now we're way far off base

So I think we did we probably got it 75 % of the way there in the founding of this country of what a christian nation

Should look like I don't think we went quite far enough And I think I don't go as far as say a stephen wolf on some things so it's interesting you say that and you you give the year because what changed around that time and What changed was so you had you had um

What what people were seeing was the the modernism coming in? Right and this so this is the history of the fundamentalist movement

They're responding to that and I I really see and where You know, kenton is going to hate this.

I I At least I admit it up front I I really see a lot of What the fundamentalists were doing?

Is what some of the christian nationals are doing today? is in a response to The culture they're fighting the modernism

And really the what was the change the big changing point scopes monkey trial And when scopes monkey trial occurred

The fundamentalist said that's it. We're pulling out of society And they did they pulled out and just created a vacuum but I think the reason so much that happened was because they were fighting trying to push a social agenda or political agenda and when they felt that they lost credibility on that they just Pulled away altogether.

I I think that's and and kenton you you might disagree I think a lot of what's going on with christian nationalism is pushing a political social agenda

Rather than a biblical one. I I have so I personally My view of christian nationalism and you could agree or disagree um, and I haven't read stephen wolf's book or any of the other books because like when everyone's looking yeah,

I want to say to tim there's like four different books out there on christian nationalism that say that they're you know, the the

Definition of it. So it's like yeah, so it's clearly not something that's that's so clear but I the real issue

I have with the terminology at least is that it started from the left and the marxist, you know have that term to basically be able to go after all christians and say oh see all the christians are trying to Change the government and therefore

I think what it was was it was going to be had harris won in my opinion that Had they gone that way they would have been able to use that christian nationalism to start calling christians insurrectionists

Terrorists and using that as a ploy to to arrest them. And so christians taking that on and then

Arguing for that I think just plays right into their hands fortunately, we had a different election, but yeah,

I think um The framing coming from the left certainly it started with them, but if it's an accurate label

I'm, like I I take the label because i'm a christian. I'm a nationalist I believe that a nation should work together for its own collective good.

I think every american should think that america is the best Think that cuba is the best nation in the world, right?

So i'm a christian and i'm a nationalist and the marriage of those two things isn't a label that I would um

Outright reject and so i'm you know in the same boat. I haven't read stephen wolf's book either and in terms of What is a christian nationalist?

I'd probably be a lot closer to greg So the only probably the only guy who read stephen wolf's book on christian nationalism here on this program tonight was the guy who?

Via millie disagrees with all of it That's yeah, it's it's on my reading list, but my reading list is

Long Yes, but yeah, I I think it's a good label to take because it's it's accurate to I am a christian and i'm a nationalist and I think um that the marriage of those two things works for society's good,

I think that our nation our um Government adopting the principles and edicts from scripture

Would make us into a great nation again I think yeah, I think what tim did was he obviously painted the worst possible self -professing christian nationalist because In many ways,

I mean what you just how you just describe yourself a christian who's also a nationalist I mean that is that that could be understood in such a completely vague and almost blase type of very neutered way

Like I I could consider not considering myself a christian nationalist I could say of myself and i'm a christian but i'm also a patriotic american and Quote -unquote nationalist, right?

So the real the real thing that i'm interested to hear from you Is what makes you being a christian nationalist?

Any different than me being a christian nationalist like uh, what what like? What to what what do you subscribe to and not not so much what you don't subscribe to?

That would be difficult for me to answer because I don't know you very well. Hi i'm kenton. It's great to meet you My name that's true that that part was a little unfair that's true, but I guess maybe just more specifically like We said hi before And I prophesied beforehand that andrew was gonna do what andrew was gonna call you three eight different things.

I don't remember Have you been keeping count? Yeah, because I've only gotten two. He hasn't gotten the third one yet.

And so i'm really hoping So he won't call me a liar. Um, no, yeah, you're right. The comparison is probably unfair, but I am curious um with all the other christian nationalists out there would it be would you agree and i'm not gonna say that everyone agrees, but Would you agree that?

um It's hard to find other christian nationalists who who think exactly like you do about it

And that there's a lot of different thoughts out there Or do you find that there's a big group of people who are right where you are? I think it's a very very poorly defined term

I think there's a lot of different definitions for it A lot of people will take it to mean a lot of different things, you know, you're that's dangerous

Gonna Um use the term differently than your pete. Hexeth is going to use differently than your joel webbin

That's the whole reason I say that we need to avoid the term I think james white

I forget the term he had but he came up with a different term First off i'm aligned with the term.

Let's redeem it They don't get they don't get to make up words and then take them from us and redefine them the left doesn't

They created the term. We're the ones that are changing it No, no, but I think

With the most broad definition the definition that I gave at the beginning of the debate that a christian nationalist is someone who believes that a nation should be governed by the um,

Laws and culture of that that is put forth by scripture. I think all of those people could fall under that banner

But it's which ones that you're enforcing and which ones you aren't the particulars the minutiae that's my point too is is

You got to realize like um wolf is the took so much heat for that book because he really was the first one two years ago to go okay

Let's let's get into minutiae This is what I would do with x y and z and this is what the right and everyone went.

Oh my gosh What are you doing? Well? You you have to take that stand at some point, you know, it's kind of it's kind of lazy for me to say

Oh my general equity theonomist. Well, what's the general equity of of of uh, dual woven fabrics, right?

Now that's ceremonial law. That's not civil law But even if we take us a civil law, you know parapet around the roof, you know

And we can take building codes out of that. Well, even that has to have some type of interpretation Right.

Does the parapet around the roof just mean building codes or does it also? fully extend out to thou shall not murder and You need to take care of your brother and your enemy and your other

Human that's living next to you and not do things that put them in danger So like there's all these little webs within christian nationalism that need to be hashed out um

I've like I said, I probably land more historically On what the westminster and london baptists fall upon when they say general equity thereof

Meaning we look at the civil law that was given to the israelites. We look at the ten commandments We go what general equity can we pull out of that and I would probably 75 80 percent of what could be pulled out of that.

I most people that have presented things I would agree with and say I would even say we were

Like I said 75 80 percent of the way there for the first 40 years of this nation where we took the general equity of that and said this can be done and this can't be done even though it wasn't

Specifically stated in the bible. We took the equity of what god was saying and said let's apply that for 1795 or 1820

Yeah You didn't say anything that I would disagree with So let me put some comments up that we had

No, um so Also too really quick and just if you guys want to go look this up Um in 19 in the 19 teens like 1910 to like 1920 was really where we stopped enforcing blasphemy laws

Uh, they were still on the books, but publicly we stopped endorsing those in 1965 um congress passed something

I think trying to state that um muslims jews, uh, Christian and catholic those four or five couldn't be blasphemed against um, they got it passed, but still didn't enforce it and then in 2008 we just removed all blasphemy laws altogether in this country

So to aaron's point before talking about idol and blasphemy. I really see really the turn of the early

Last century turn of the last century was really where things started to go off the rails when you get rid of blasphemy and idol

I would really be interested to see Thinking through what you with what you just said how tim would respond

To the blasphemy laws that he's against in christian nationalism in sharia

You know in muslim law is he against is he against the fact that? In muslim law, they could kill anybody who is from a muslim faith and converts to any other

That's that's punishable by death would would he have an issue with that? Because he supports muslims so much

Well, yeah, that was one of the things we talked about. He asked me kenton. Would you um, If say a muslim was a muslim nationalist, would you be fine living in their nation and I I didn't really

Understand what his point was because of course not i'm a i'm a christian. I think islam is is a false religion.

Um, the the point that I was making is that christianity is objectively a superior worldview to any other religion and that's why that's the

Uh basis, that's the foundation for what we should write our laws and culture off of Okay, so here was a question.

Jesse asked do we as christians separate our faith from the secular world? And then he said god forbid so he kind of answers in his view, but nailed it

You know do but should we should we be separating those? What do you mean by secular

I'd want to know what he means by secular world, what does the word secular mean Jesse maybe you could put that in he also said this he said christian nationalists start from the bottom up and not top down evangelizing the nations

I I don't know that I would agree with that with all I would say

Um where I would land at least with that is you got to have both you have to have people in churches

Um going out into their communities spreading the gospel grassroots, right people working in local elections

Um and things like that, but you also have to have big wins like a member of the crec being the secretary of defense and so it works from both directions and um

It's not clean cut bottom to top shout out pete. Heck. Thanks. That's right. Yeah, exactly I didn't

I didn't know he was he was a member of that. He's coming on the podcast pretty soon. Um, he's Yeah, uh, so, um

Really quick though, I would go back to I know I keep belaboring this point but um, you're saying evangelized disciple the nations.

Yes You know start from the bottom up and the top down it can be yes, and But look at the united states in its early foundings

I think it was probably the closest to the model of a christian nation that you could have maybe outside the first 10 years of rome in 300 if we

We we made you know by definition making it a christian nation, but they weren't practicing the mosaic law from a federal government standpoint you had

You know, I mean the king called it the presbyterian revolt with the revolution I mean the 13 colonies every one of them was attached to either a baptist presbyterian or anglican

Denomination. I mean you have the guys founding the country basing everything on the mosaic law in in the christian religion

So you you did but how did we get that? We got that by them being evangelized at some point in their lives and converting to christ.

So so it is kind of oh Well, there was a lot. So I think that you had a lot of christian influence you you clearly had even guys like you know

Franklin and jefferson who are deists they're not christian But you listen to them speak and their and their speech or their writings

And they're speaking more christian language than most christians today Well, that's my point you're saying they're not christian because they're deists but their deism was was a

Minor part if you read their letters a very minor part They really just honestly believe they had to have that world view because they're like hey i'm creating a country

God's outside of this. He's just kind of watching us do this. We need to take the reins That's where their deism came in And obeying the mosaic law and you look at madison you look at jefferson

Go read god and government by gary demar don't agree with him on his end time stuff But his god and government book on on how this country was established will blow your mind when you look into the personal letters

These founding fathers were writing. Yeah But when you when you look at i'm, sorry, but if you look at franklin's lifestyle, you're not going to say he's a christian

He was a womanizer Up until people want to call trump a christian. He's a womanizer, you know third fourth marriage, you know affairs

All that stuff. So what? I do I do see where greg's coming from because um my sins

Don't define my relationship with god if they did then we very we fall into the latent flowers travel

Recognize it's a sin like he like he yeah So I would say really his beliefs are what would define?

Does he believe that the only way that you can be reconciled with god a that? You need to be reconciled with god that he wants to be reconciled with god

And the only way you can be reconciled with god is through the blood and jesus christ If he's believing that uh and communicating along those lines, then we would be safe to say that um

He was a christian at least from our limited perspective Uh, the problem is that we don't know a lot about those guys and and what they actually believe

We just know what limited things they wrote We know the terrible choices that they made but i'd be fair that people just judge me by the terrible choices

I made and didn't listen to what I said about the scriptures. They might come to the conclusion that i'm not a christian Privately What we do is asking do you send do you send booster

Yeah, I do david and I are having a great conversation in the comments If you guys if you guys ever have a chance to like this is a this is a multi -dimensional show

What you need to do is you need to come in for the at the very first time when it's live and you just need To focus on the comments and just have a great time in there

And then you just go back and you watch the show and only focus on the show. It's two completely different People don't realize how difficult it is to to host the show especially if I don't have a co -host that can control the comments because I'm trying to look at my comments, but I can write questions and things like that and You know

You see have a total separate conversation going on in chat that we end up having and for folks who may be wondering you're seeing you know, aaron bruce doesn't know how to chat here because he's he's actually responding to The youtube and spot and spitting out the three different youtube channels

So there's probably some people going what's aaron saying because wherever david is that's the only channel where they're getting the full

Full thing I would say andrew really quick too. I'll just throw this out there for me going from uh reform theology my 20s and really cage stage for probably 8 or 10 years and then really having my eyes open to Understanding why other people believe other things when you start looking through church history

And then really having the holy spirit convict you and go, you know We all believe we are the sweet spot of righteousness

We look at the man that has the crappy car and we go if he just worked a little harder Like god said hard work.

He could get what he wants And we look at the guy with the car that's nicer than us and we go. Oh that rich snob He's just so into his physical

You know material things we have determined we are the sweet spot of righteousness and compared to an all holy all righteous all gloriful

God, we are actually like menstrual rags in his sight. We are depraved. We are sinful

That's where we are compared to a holy and sovereign god. So as i've gotten older too i've also said, you know

Oh, he did this and that guy did that and he and god says how about I open up the internet tabs?

Uh history on everyone because that's how he sees us We only look at everyone and go what we can see they did publicly and god says

I can see what you did privately I can see what you thought like christ said if you think about adultery if you think about murder in your heart

You've committed it and i've found as i've gotten older to not to not to renege on my principles

Not to renege on the holiness and sovereignty of god But also look and say just like the the borrower, right?

Uh, god has forgiven me of so much because I know the sinner I am I have to give some grace to those

Uh as well. I can't go say hey I've been forgiven a million dollars from the king and then throw my brother in prison for ten dollars, you know

Yeah I I will give a comment here to say that Aaron the guy david you're responding to who's on dead man walking, uh youtube channel um

He says no I cannot sin i'm freed from it It would be fun to have him come in here and let's talk if you're sinless perfectionist, which sounds like you're you're arguing for Let's do two hours of hyper grace.

Let's go. Yeah So and I just asked him some questions. I asked him so you don't lust you don't manipulate you don't get impatient

And then he says why are you trying to put me under the law? I'm, not trying to put you on the law. David. I just asked a question Do you are you ever if you were on the show with us?

Would you be tempted to anger? Would you get frustrated would you get you know, would you be impatient? I mean Are those things not sins are those things not sins when you do it?

But there's sins when someone else does it like i'm just I obviously I can't put all that in the comment And he just says laws laws laws

Well, yeah, because the bible says those things are sin, you know, I mean respectfully anyone who says they don't sin

Uh, they just sin because that's a lie Yeah, it's a lie and and first john has something really significant to say about that Just I mean this is for john

This is for david But obviously it's a good thing for all of us to remember because I found as a biblical counselor One of the hardest things is to do what james chapter 5 tells us to do and confess our sins one to another

To be open and honest enough to and to say to be humble enough to say I am a sinner And this is how

I sin. I was sitting across from my pastor recently and we were having this conversation um, but in in first john

It specifically says that if we say that we have no sin We're a liar So so david i'm not calling you a liar but this

I mean I I'm calling you a liar but but above and beyond that John on the inspiration of the holy spirit is saying that you're a liar if you say that you have no sin so Those would make that argument say, uh that believe that and like kind of hyper grace and what would you call it earlier andrew?

Um sinless perfectionism Yeah, sinless perfectionism. They would say uh, john is talking about before coming to christ correct filled with holy spirit

That's that's their argument for that One is one of the things is and and they they the lot of it is they focus on first john and there's a reason for that um first john

We have to understand So this is part of hermeneutics, right? the the context what first john what he's trying to write about is the issue of Gnosticism as it's coming in the church and arguing that anything physical

Is bad, but anything spiritual is good. So they would they would have actually the gnostics would eventually deny the uh humanity of christ uh, but except the deity of christ and so John, they

I mean these people are people that would go and sleep with a prostitute And say it's okay

That there's no problem sleeping with a prostitute because you're you have faith In fact, let me let me just play for for those who haven't been haven't heard this show before We we had a guy who came in and and made that exact argument.

Uh, I was But here we'll just play this clip from a previous show Are you saying that someone a believer can go sleep with a prostitute?

And it wouldn't be right or wrong because he's not under the law anymore So if he if he sleeps with a prostitute, but has faith in doing it

Then it's okay Yeah, it's okay Okay, I I i'm gonna ask this again because I want to make sure that I heard you correctly

Yeah, it's okay. It would be as long as you have faith He can do that.

He can make Wow, okay. Um You're saying that as long as we have faith

And faith in what we do in faith is not sin Yes So so it's this is

That is a big problem. Like I was really trying to be clear. So This is the argument that this is the type of thinking john's dealing with So yes, john is very black and white in first john

It's like it's light or it's darkness. There's no in between. There's no gray and He's doing that because of who he's responding to and if you if you ignore that then you have trouble with that book because You're going to start reading into it as many sinless perfectionists do is saying well, no we can't have any sin

Well, is that the sin that you're thinking of? You know lying stealing is that the sin that he's talking about?

In that culture in that time to those people. No He's talking he's talking to people that say they're believers and they can as that guy just said

They can even sleep with a prostitute and it wouldn't be sin That's what he's addressing

So, yeah, yeah, yeah Very quickly too. It's like, uh once you latch on to understanding a good hermeneutic it is so So such a blessing when you start reading through the bible and you go

Oh, there's things where scripture interprets scripture and the context of things and why was that person?

Why were they writing to them? What was the culture at the time? What did the jews believe at the time? You know, I was just going through a study with someone telling me i'll tell you a really quick story and you'll find this funny someone

Uh said oh mike sent in a group message. Oh my gosh trump forgot to swear And put his hand on the bible and another one of my friends said well that's good because jesus said never swear an oath and I actually think it's better and And the fact that he didn't do that now, he's not you know, now it's not unbiblical

So I go into this deep dive with him and I go do you understand who christ was talking to when he's talking about swearing?

A promissory transactional oath when he's telling people you jewish people have heard

It said swear an oath to god and then you would have these convoluted Promissory oaths to where you would technically be able to get out of doing what you said you were going to do but you didn't technically

Uh, you know, you know go against the the wording of the oath that you made These were these transactional weird almost like you know

What I mean like two attorneys battling in their contracts back and forth and christ said no don't swear an oath like that Don't swear to god because god's god and don't swear it on earth because that's his footstool and that belongs to him

Just let your yes be your yes and your no be your no the character of not breaking the ninth commandment

Let that be your oath, right? And he went Oh, i've never heard anyone say it that way and I go well

That's because there's there's so much context behind that right like you're jewish. Uh, andrew you understand?

He's talking to jewish people understanding what an oath was how they used it in business how they used it in daily life

What when he says that what he's what he's meaning by it, but we as american christians and english speakers

We just kind of read that really quick kind of what like tim did about rich people, right? This context of oh all rich people are bad because he said something about being rich is is horrible

And then you go well what about the 15 to 20 other verses about wise men leaving wealth to their children and their children's children and And god talking about well, yes wealth is is not inherently evil, right?

Having billions of dollars, but I digress my whole point was it's a beautiful thing to understand context.

Well, yeah One of the things is you know, so tim tim did this you you ended up um,

You know pointing this out. It's the the the thing is what you have people do

Is and tim explained this when we first started the show and we talked about progressive christian And it's it's he and he said this later is his hermeneutic is to his culture is going to read in he

Uses culture to understand the scripture. That's the problem with his hermeneutic So he gives the he gives the scripture and this is you know, aaron

I think you asked the question of you know, uh to him saying, you know, are there multi? You know, is there one interpretation is what you're trying to get to there's one interpretation many applications to scripture

But see he's going to say that it changes over time and and culture is what defines it.

That's not how you read Yeah using culture to find the bible is like straining your water through a dirty diaper.

It's like what are you doing? That's you got it the wrong way around Yeah, I mean well it's here's the thing if you're when you do that You're then giving it new meanings.

I mean this is but remember where he's at with his liberalism, right? I mean, that's what they want to do with the constitution.

They want they want judges that call it a living document So they they want to reinterpret it with today's culture rather than say what did it mean at the time?

This is what they end up doing. So you're you're effectively changing the meaning by giving it new definitions

And new meanings with the current culture ignoring the context in which it was written That's the wrong way to do any kind of interpretation exactly and progressives do that all the time and the fundamental understanding that's baked into that is

We're better and smarter and more evolved than they are than they were And so if we look at the first amendment and we can't ask ourselves the question.

How did the founders? Justify having the first amendment but at the same time having blasphemy laws

Instead of that we interpret the first amendment under our own Understanding in 2025 america instead of going back and seeing what was the intention of the founders when when writing these things

Yeah, and I think that gets into a lot of hot water Let me let me do this and and for folks who may be new here

I mean what we do on apologetics lives as you saw we try to we do apologetics We saw that with our discussion with tim we try to explain apologetics as you saw when

I'd stop and Explain why you know we do that I and it's it is kind of fun when I get someone that i'm debating

And they come in start discussing something and i'll explain exactly what they're going to do

As I did in the beginning where I said he's good, you know He uses the projection and then and then aaron's pointing out how he was doing exactly that right?

And so um, we do this so you guys can spot the behavior so you could see so when you are

Using apologetics you can you can spot things. I want to play a clip from the from the debate because ken

Ken, you did this to him in the debate Um, let me remove the banner so we could see your face though um so I want to play and I don't know if I have it exactly right but In the debate you you called him out for his behavior or something.

He did in the so let's listen It seems to be christian So wait, hold on I should slow it down because I listen at the fastest speed possible

And most people can't handle that. All right, here we go. It's um interesting how you you take the

Let me back this up we are no longer so we get his comment Could you give me um

Back then what made america a christian nation? Was it when we had race -based shadow slavery? Was it when we had jim crow laws and then what was the moment or time in american history where we ceased to be christian?

And what was the reason for that? so I think it's um interesting how you you take the

What is perceived as the worst parts of our history and you impose that on the entire thing, but I would say that every or almost every um founder of this nation

Subscribed to christian beliefs. Um King george even called the american revolution one time the press so I mean

No offense. We didn't your your answer wasn't the important part of this But so I I just want to point out you see how how kennington recognized in in the debate

In his response, what's he doing? He's pointing out exactly the behavior that he saw

Tim doing right tim's tim's In his question, did you see how his question was a setup?

Are at what point was this a christian nation when the slavery the any the cattle slavery all the things that are perceived to be?

the worst things Um It's kind of interesting because you know

He argues for that And and maybe he'll come back in and we can discuss slavery and we'll see how little he knows about the christian

Or the biblical view of slavery because most people think of it as the same as cattle slavery and it's not um

But I think I think he did a good job there and that's something I wanted I I at least wanted to get to that one part of the debate because Kenton what you did there is something that people should do especially when they're having a formal debate well, you guys it was not really formal a little less formal more discussion, but You you didn't fall for the bait

Look if you're watching And the clip I wanted to get and i'll just say there's a there's a canadian running for prime minister right now a candidate for prime minister just go and look at uh, the the video where he is um, he is being challenged with gender

The the the reporter says, you know, do you believe you know, would you support? You know, donald trump just said there's only male and female genders

If you if you're elected would you would you agree with making a same rule? And the guy what is that question that question is the same as what tim did to you kenton it's it's baiting you right?

It's a setup question And where any answer you give is is a problem? And so what did he do?

He the prime the candidate had then challenged his premise in that question, right? How many genders are there then?

You're the one bringing up the two genders then i'ma challenge the premise you're making that there's more than two How many are there?

Yeah And that's and that's what I wanted to point out that kenton did that we need to learn to do don't give into it

What what the the guy says? Well, well the there's other genders. He says well name them I only know of two

I know male and female. What other genders are you talking about? And the guy just goes well, well, I identify as a male

He's like that doesn't matter you you mentioned other genders. What are they tell me what they are and I could respond to them And you know, and this is the same guy by the way

If you've ever seen the video of the guy that's chewing the apples, they're like, you know, people say you're this horrible guy he's like what people he just keeps eating the apple, which is the classic part, but but What kenton did there was not take the bait?

He he called out the behavior I notice how you're trying to make it the worst possible thing and then he just goes on to to to make the comment

Learn from what he did Right, so we we don't fall in don't take the bait when people do that when they give you these setup questions like that because That is designed

And I don't know if tim really like there's some people who do That behavior on purpose for debate tactics

I don't know if tim is doing it for that reason Okay, just for the record. Um Well also knowing knowing what

I know now about what tim thinks about uh, sin nature and depravity I would have said well, what do you mean? No ever no one's born into sin.

It's individual. We're not enemies of god Right. Yeah, exactly. Why is everyone why is there slavery?

Why is there child sacrifice? Why is there any of this stuff then? well, see and that's why I wanted to start with that from on this show when he did come in because I I really think you know kenton asked something about it and this that right there is what is this the big difference between In that debate that you guys had

Because you have a regenerate person and an unregenerate person The reason why I would say that is because one person's understanding the gospel and one's redefining the gospel

I mean if you can show me where jesus said You know give allegiance to me because I think what he said is repent

And believe I think that was the wording that he used um, and You know, it was really clear um but You know, there were there were a couple things that um

Greg, I know you you had I mean, I know you I don't know with a little bit of time that we've left I know we I had the clip that I want to play of where he says

Loving your enemies is not putting them in prison and we talked about that a bit tonight um

Is that really true No, I just have a real problem with the redefinition of love over the last 50 to 60 years.

Uh, yeah West in the western world, I mean we've convoluted it and diluted it so much that we don't even understand

What love is right love isn't letting someone do whatever they want love includes justice being served

Love includes discipline punishment all those different things. And unfortunately, we have this blanket blanket term of love

I'm, not saying anything new here. We've been talking about this for a long time But unfortunately that was tim what tim was doing in the christian national argument is using this blanket term of love meaning nice Right like what you don't want to be nice to people.

Well God never calls us to be nice and he doesn't call us to be fair He calls us to love and he calls us to justice and and be just with people

And those are two totally different things biblical justice and biblical love are not what is espoused

Within you can call it liberal progressive leftist kind of christianity And it's very detrimental anyone who's a parent or has any type of authority over another person in any way shape or form

Understands the term tough love right? It's not necessarily what your flesh wants to do. It's the thing that is right to do

And justice being served under christian nationalism would be just that it would be a form of love.

It's justice We have it now. We have a justice system that says if you commit a crime There's going to be things that happen to you and in some states it is death

If the crime is heinous enough right now, whether you agree or disagree with the death penalty Biblically or not you can argue that but i'm saying is we've all agreed as a society under already this big

Christian principle rule that there are consequences for actions, right?

Um, and also I would I would like to point out the mosaic law of the punishment fitting the crime

When you know when the jews came out of the desert and they went In the civilized world looked around and said wait

What are you talking about eye for an eye tooth for a tooth and they said oh the punishment has to fit the crime

Meaning you steal a piece of bread. I don't cut off your arm You steal a piece of bread you pay the man for a day of his wages, right?

God's mosaic law when the jews came out of the desert was so radical to the ancient world of wait a minute

So you're telling me that there's mercy even in the punishment. There's mercy in Uh god's law when he says no, no, no don't over punish don't over discipline

It's eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth meaning let the let the punishment Meet the crime and the crime meet the punishment.

I think that we we've carried that over In the united states in our justice system, right?

We have different levels of murder We have different levels of homicide and killing just because of that so I don't know i'm taking up too much time here but justice being served as a form of love and I also don't like that we just kind of look at the ten commandments and just we don't get into the nuance of of how

Revolutionary the mosaic law was in the old testament six thousand years ago There was nothing like it before or after and we've based civilizations on it for the last six thousand years

I was just on a podcast and talking about some what you were just saying because the person was asking about how responding to homosexuals and It was interesting because I I refer to this as a cult or a false gospel of god is love

And and I really fault the gospel track that you know, it says god has a wonderful plan for your life He loves you.

It's like god has a human shaped hole in his heart, you know, and just you are to fill it And people define love is god should give me everything.

I want god should spoil me Well, would you be a good parent if you let your kids just eat whatever they want?

No, because your kids are going to eat a bunch of junk food And then have health problems the rest of their life. You'd call that abuse

And so yeah, that's not good. So let's let's go around Uh, let folks know where they could get to know more about you kenton how could folks get ahold of you if they want to talk christian nationalism and uh,

Maybe have you on a show or or debate you on it? the uh Hopefully someone that's not progressive

The quickest place is going to be x. Um kenton little seven I think is my tag Um, i'm on youtube as well under monarch ministries, but i'm not super active on there and then um

If you dm me on on x i'll send you a link to the monarch ministries discord channel

Which is we do bible studies there. Sometimes I post a question of the day It's a good community there if you want to join up there

All right Greg dead man walking podcast, you know, you know, it's it's two hours later.

He never admitted whether he's actually a friend just saying I I was saving it for the very last minute.

Of course, andrew and carol. You are both good friends Uh, first of all, I have to say I love the dynamic of you two hosting, uh hosting and co -hosting.

Uh, This apologetics live. Um, it's very cool. I think you guys should keep doing it I think you two hooking up and kind of your cross -pollination of your ministries and stuff too is is pretty cool to see

And I think you guys both bring something unique and different to it Um strivingforeternity .org

absolutely love that organization and everything you're doing over there andrew got the book up there, too What do we believe?

Hey is is my code still good? Can they still go buy that book and get free shipping if they if they get if they want what do we believe?

And they use your code, which is mw Dead men walking dmw put it in free shipping.

All right shipping's on me So go pick up that book because uh, that's an awesome book that uh, where did

I put it? I have around here somewhere. Oh, man, I should have had it with me But anyway, uh, yeah, you can find me at dmw podcast

Did you get a hard copy? Didn't you? hard Yeah, like Five that we ever made and it's signed

It's gonna be worth money one day when uh when andrew gets assassinated or something For for saying some crazy stuff in a street corner open air or something

Oh Sorry, that was that was really uh dark at the end But really quick dmw podcast .com

is where you can find out more about me real dmw Uh podcast for x and then dead men walking podcast everywhere else

Um, that's the only one x wouldn't let me have that one, but dead men walking podcast Uh ephesians 2 dead in our trespasses now live in christ

Come check us out weekly podcast have all kinds of fun guests on and we will be a live podcasting from the dangerous friends conference

Uh in monteclova, ohio where calvin robinson just got kicked out. He's not talking anymore, but we will have steve dace

We will have uh, seth gruber. We still have jamie brambach. He's coming in from ireland We're gonna have a lot of rosaria butterfield that james white and andrew knows very well

We're gonna have those guys speaking. So come see me if you're in the midwest, uh, march 13th and 14th there. Thanks So dead man walking is a great podcast to be listening to Uh, you should actually see why didn't they let you have that that on x when it was twitter

Someone already had it and it's a defunct site. So I don't know. I I can't You can't because it's not available

But when you type it in at dead men walking podcast, it's not it's not there. So I don't know but That was before elon took over.

So maybe uh, that's what i'm thinking. Maybe you're there. Hey elon Yeah Well, aaron knows him.

So maybe i could talk to him. He's too busy throwing up nazi symbols Uh -oh

Wait aaron or elon I didn't think elon. I mean I oh jeez Symbols, I mean did you see

I mean hillary clinton did it? Yeah, I got in trouble with my family about that It's actually kind of funny.

So my daughter We're we are we're my family is very caucasian. Um, exceptionally

Roof in july. Okay well Yeah, exactly because we my wife and I were certain that we would give birth to vampires with transparent skin

But uh, my wife my daughter just decided to learn german Uh, which I studied in college.

So the two of us walking around, uh speaking german Um, sometimes i'm like maybe this is a bad idea. I don't know

Okay, okay, so all right fun story so so But I had my now son -in -law before they were my daughter got married

Uh was living in our house for for the summer and What we're sitting there and over dinner one day.

I I realized that If she marries this guy, I just we're at dinner and I went.

Oh, no And everyone looked at me and they're like what I said, I just realized something like what I said

If you guys actually get married You're marrying a german And he's like yeah and I said and even worse your initials are going to be s s ha ha ha

Nice And did you allow it the wedding's off? Yeah, well, you know

By the way, greg, that was very kind words of you. Uh to to uh to say there about The the dynamic that we have

I really I wanted you to know before you signed off that I really appreciate that That was very kind. Thank you. Oh, no, it's good stuff. I mean it.

Hey, can uh, aaron give a shout out there? Aaron how can folks get a hold of you? Yeah, I said earlier on the show go to evermindministries .com

And there you can see uh, all the various ministries that are part of that truth Love family the year -long celebration of god my speaking schedules are there and things like that Uh, you can get my new book quit which isn't as cool as the digital one that that andrew's got there

I just hold mine up like this, uh quit as a as a book all about how to stop family strife for good conflict uh in your family

Um, i'm going to be speaking actually in two upcoming homeschool conferences i'm actually really excited about that Um, i'm going to be speaking at the thrive conference in winston -salem, north carolina

I'm also going to be speaking at the great homeschool convention Or conference. I can't remember which one that is ghc, uh down in greenville, south carolina

So i'm really looking forward to that i'll be doing that uh ghc in march and the great uh, the thrive conference in um

In winston -salem that one's gonna be happening in may and i'll just say too that the thrive one if you guys are in anywhere near that area get there because a friend of mine renton rathbun who's uh, who's head over the world of you, um program at bob jones university

Um the worldview center he does such an amazing amazing job I might just not do my session so I can go listen to whatever it is

He's saying so, um, if you guys are in that area definitely make it a point to come out there especially if you're homeschoolers and just before Uh, since aaron we're still focusing on aaron

I'm, just going to put this up here and remind folks, uh that they can support the brewsters at give send go .com

slash sfe Sfe stands for striving fraternity Uh for folks who don't know maybe it's your first time here listening uh, but aaron was affected by the

Hurricane there in north carolina. I know no one cares about that because there's you know Hollywood types are losing million dollar homes and you know, they're insured.

So, you know, that's all that matters is that you know uh, but but aaron, uh had a

A lot of loss. Uh, we ended up through this through those who had supported we were able to replace his hvac system we uh have been able to raise a little bit more money to help with the um, basically a guy get rid of all the mold and and all the water damage that is going to cost a lot of money and then

There's vehicles the rv where his son lived is gone and cars and things like that so if you can help support a fellow christian who is

Devoted himself to the christian ministry to the point that he moved in with his parents So he could be full -time counseling and and serving god through the different ministries.

He's involved in He's made that sacrifice which means he doesn't have the money to since they weren't insured um for the hurricane

Uh, this is all the only real means he's got to to repay all this so Um, if you guys can help them out, it's give send go dot -com

Slash sfe that will get you there So I want to just encourage that you guys might consider doing that also.

I'm hoping that I'll put this out and put greg on the on the spot here I think that I think that I really think greg since he's got the he's going to be around Since the other conference that we were supposed to be at got canceled.

He should come to the uh Build to conquer conference.

I I really think hey, look I I could talk to caleb and get you as the mc i'm sure Because that would be really good

Um, but it it's looking like it's going to be a great conference. It is uh in bartsville, oklahoma

Some great speakers and and you go. Oh, I may not know these names Well, you may not but i'll tell you some of these that I have preached alongside, uh, michael stanton, uh, there's also their um

Brett baggett who i've i've preached with who's great Gabe i've never heard preach uh, but He's he is a wonderful guy

I got to speak with him a lot but I would argue you want to come for brandon scalf and if you've never heard brandon preach

Uh brandon is an outstanding preacher he is one of my top 10 favorite preachers so I I put him up on a high up there if you've never heard him preach

This would be a great way to to get to to come and get some great preaching. So Uh, the website is it's part of the the caleb gordon show.

He's very creative with his names Um the the caleb gordon show so his website is caleb gordon .org

He's as bad as my friend justin peters who is justin peter's ministry and Go, I don't know why

I like that joke so much. That was It's late. It's been a long day. It's late. It just yeah He's very creative.

So if you guys could get to the the build to conquer conference I'm trying to see if I could talk dead man walking here

Greg more into uh coming to it. Uh, but here's the incentive greg if you come

You will get to see we we're we're planning. Caleb gordon said that if I get a cold plunge down there

He will get in a cold plunge and um Shepherd is planning to go and he says he will do a cold plunge

But but only if brandon scalf will so now I got to convince brandon to get into a cold plunge So we are

I am thinking like let's see if if these guys can handle five minutes and 40 If I can come down there and let's talk offline about that.

I see the dates down there I gotta check my calendar But if I can get down over there and you can get those two in a cold plunge, then i'll do a cold plunge

There we go. All right Cold plunge challenge. So, uh, it is shaping up.

I think that's going to be a great conference It's a one -day conference. So especially if you're local to oklahoma there to bartsville, oklahoma within a day's drive

A great price great great event looking to that. It's shaping up. So I hope that you would come out for that.

Um with that I want to I want to thank Kenton if you want to come out any other time have any discussion the show is always open

To anyone to come in. I mean, that's what we do here every week we we're here to answer questions whether it's in chat or Live and it's always fun as you see tonight where tim came in I actually didn't think tim was going to come in based on the twitter exchange or the the uh,

I was a little surprised that he showed up Yeah, I I wasn't I wasn't I think I he likes to debate and I I know that but um

So, yeah, he's he's a really nice guy. Okay, even though we we would disagree very much um

You know and and I think he's going to be in hell for eternity if he doesn't repent he would disagree. Um, but It's being nice.

It's nice to warn someone of something like that, but uh Next week

I I mentioned earlier, you know if I knew about the the muting, uh Greg I posted a thing on x just a poll.

It was just a poll a simple poll asking What people believe on millennialism?

Post -millennialism free millennialism Yeah Full preterists went nuts

They were all over it and so um We uh, we said that you know, what would you be willing to debate the topic?

and Well, you know as typical a bunch of people said they'll debate it And then one by one they backed out

But they all called another guy in some guy Michael sullivan to come and do a debate and I said good I got sam frost and they were like, oh, he's a coward.

He's running from me I'm not going to do it with him because he's running from a debate for me. I'm wait

Here's here's the opportunity. It's kind of back to that text exchange with with tim, right? Is he gonna do it have an adult conversation?

No, they backed out And so I ended up once they backed out and said they weren't frost didn't back out.

Did he? Oh, no, sam said do it sam Actually sam actually when I told him he went on to the the thing just to say

I've i've never backed out of a debate with michael and i'm here to debate. Let's do it. So You know, but you kind of know the quality

I kind of realized the quality when this guy michael who was their big debater Wanted me to and greg you'll laugh at this.

He wanted me to defend On millennialism and I said, why should I defend on millennialism?

Well, you made the claim. You should defend your view What did I start laughing just putting a poll out there

Well, he thinks you're a millennial. Thank you very much He thinks i'm all millennial and i'm like, why would

I defend a position? I don't hold to he's like Well, you put the poll out and the poll doesn't take a position nor does it make a claim

So he's so then someone This was classic some woman who she wanted to debate me but in writing and I You know i'm like, yeah

I don't I don't debate women because you shouldn't be teaching the bible in the first place to men. So just get over that um, but She actually goes to our website.

It's striving for attorney .org She pulls up the link for what we believe our doctrinal statement posts it

And then says that i'm not all mill. I'm post mill You were like, uh, you got you had three chances

There it is two strikes She's saying she read my doctrinal statement that says i'm pre -mil

You need to clarify your doctrinal statement there I can't Obviously, it's obviously andrew's fault.

I mean andrew Consider how you communicate It's not well,

I mean if different people interpret the doctrinal statement differently, doesn't that mean that the doctrinal statement is wrong? Yeah, well, we can't trust it.

That's for sure I mean, I think I just need to read his doctrinal statement and really think about what I feel and believe about it

I don't think andrew wrote it at all Yeah, well you gotta love keyboard cowboys right they're all out there

I actually had a woman who who contacted the ministry and told me uh what

I believed And i'm like, I don't believe that and I directed her to the doctrinal statement and she actually said you're hiding your real beliefs

I know you and i'm like, we've never met we've never taught like Okay, you you know what?

I believe better than me. Okay. Yeah, you're not nuts but uh, we are gonna have sam frost and uh, jeremiah, oh,

I just drew a blank on his last name Yes And so they're going to come on we're going to talk full preterism and hopefully the others will come in Um, maybe now that you've told me

I can mute people i'll unblock them so I could tell them that they could show up And then i'll mute them so I don't have to I'd like to be there with popcorn.

I'll come in and just uh, you know Well, that will be next thursday night Um, so we will do that.

That's the show for next thursday Uh folks if you liked having greg in here Let us know maybe we could bring him in we mean we could you know coax them in more often

You know He likes watching us get into the debate and standing back

Yeah That's my fan base Well, I will say one last thing and that is over greg's right shoulder

Uh is something very special here that we would have your right shoulder well

My right you're right. This is right. I'm saying your right shoulder your right shoulder and if he goes down You will see that he's got some squirrelly joe's coffee there that bag of coffee that he's got two of them right there

And so squirrelly joe's coffee is one of the sponsors here. If you want to get some great coffee

I suggest you're striving for eternity .org Slash coffee and you can get what the purple one.

I don't i'm not sure what that is Which one is that? This is the guacamole bean, uh, what is it called though?

This one is uh, because they all have a name Yeah, it says it right on front I I forget which one

I thought I don't see a big lettering wisdom wisdom It's the biggest words there the squirrelly joe's maybe um

And so the it could be compassion there. Um Which you could see that greg hasn't drank any compassion and so That's why he's left

I keep this one full because I like to be a real jerk So squirrelly joe's is not only a great coffee, but you're supporting a christian family

So go to strivingforhearing .org slash coffee use the promo code sfe. I don't know

They either it's either 20 off for your first uh of your first purchase or You're getting a free bag of coffee with your first purchase

Don't remember which one because I think he changed it on us, but it's one of those So go check that out, uh, and and do us a favor every time you reorder

Just go to strivingforreturning .org slash coffee so that joe knows you heard about it hear from us

So I hope you guys enjoy the show a lot of fun fireworks. I love I know this is messed up, but I love when guys like tim come in and we just have those kind of you know, somewhat heated not really heated but but Uh good discussions where we can disagree passionate.

That'd be a great word for it Uh, we can we can have those kind of discussions. Those are good and healthy to do

Uh, as long as you're not getting you know into name calling and all that but that's what we're here to do

That's what we try to do each week is to educate you guys give you guys some different ways to help You in your apologetics

Hope that you got some value out of that and just remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of god