Biblical Interpretation: Are We Quenching the Spirit with Cessationism?

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I am your host Andrew Rappaport the executive director of striving for eternity and The Christian podcast community of which this podcast is a proud member.

We are here to give you biblical interpretations and applications for the

Christian life and with that I have Someone who I have known.

I don't know if we've met in person, but Ryan Denton We have we have we met and done some evangelism in person

Yeah, well we will have to find an event so we could both go evangelize together And I think that's what we have in common is our

You know love and and kind of evangelism type ministries but you're coming on today to discuss something different and What we're gonna we want to do is is talk about The idea of the certain spiritual gifts that continuation ism

Cessation ism, but more so you've been kind of vocal Online about what you see is more some of the extremes

We know the extremes on the continuation ism side, but you have voiced concern on the cessationist side

So that's that's what we'll end up talking about But first let folks know about you a little bit about yourself here

And and then you know Maybe we start with what we where we have the commonality and then get to where we might disagree

Yeah, so I'm in Texas. I'm a Presbyterian minister over here church planner pastor before As you mentioned on a lot of evangelism, and so that's that's certainly where where I'm most at home

As far as ministry goes I enjoy doing that and then as of late.

I would say the last two or three years or so Really, I guess you could say a you know we all have those those those those hobbies those pet doctrines pet hobbies

And that's that's really this topic that we're discussing today has become that I don't claim and and I've tried to maintain that I don't claim to be an expert on this

I I Have been reading a lot of the primary sources and secondary sources. I I don't consider myself

An expert in you know the history history of really anything.

I mean, I'm just I'm just an observer and a reader and even when it comes to The scriptures you know it's it's the exegesis the text you know

I think for everybody we we want to be biblically Accurate and and dividing the doctrine accurately dividing the

Word of God accurately and so that that's of course a chief concern of mine as well But that being said

I I do consider myself a cessationist I sometimes characterize that or qualify that by saying

I Am I would say much more in line with some of the reformed views of cessationism

Or at least how they how they nuanced some of that compared to maybe some of the

The versions of cessationism today, and so I think there is a lot of commonality in these areas

But I think it's some of those and some of the other places as far as dreams visions

Prophetic impulses that kind of stuff. I think that's probably where there would be a difference between me and a lot of the more contemporary cessationists, so That's who

I am and that's what I'm doing here. Yeah So you you and I at first you were you were looking for debates and at first I thought you were a continuationist which

I jumped on because I'm like I've been looking for a Continuationist to debate with me.

Let me define some of the terms For folks that may be brand new to it so there were gifts in the first century that Some believe continue to today and some believe ceased those gifts would be things like the gift of languages the gift of prophecy the gift of wisdom

Healing things like that what some would refer to as signed gifts or miraculous gifts

I Refer to them as revelatory gifts if you watch the film Cessationism that's where that that came from When we're working on producing that and so the idea that is these gifts either point to something

Or for a purpose of something, but there's other gifts that continue today like teaching administration mercy

Giving these are ones that still continue for today. So the idea is that certain gifts Vindicated and this would be my position vindicated the writing of Scripture If folks want to dig in deeper on that just go to I have an article striving for attorney org slash miracles

You can find the sermons I did at the cessationist conference going through all the miracles showing that there's really only three periods of time where we do have these miraculous

Gifts happening and it's all tied to the writing of Scripture outside of that. You only have about eight instances

So either way I'm gonna make the case that they're not normative. They weren't in in the 4 ,000 years of biblical history

I don't think they are today, but there's people who think they do I And I have been looking for debates on it you and I were talking because I thought you were every site thought you're a continuationist and And then you're like no.

No, I'm a cessationist. I was like, oh, oh well, but you know I'm still supposed to have the debate slash long -form discussion with Michael Brown But he's the only one that's agreed to it

I know the guys from remnant radio you and I were talking about this how they're always saying well We'll debate someone we want someone to debate and everyone tells me

I'm running from those guys. I'll say it again publicly Anyone that knows them tell them

I'm ready If they if they want to surprise me and not even give me time to prep

Apologetics live Thursday nights 8 to 10 Eastern Time. They can come on unannounced.

I won't know there's a debate Let's do it that that's how confident. I am that the scripture is clear, but Everyone's telling me

I'm running from them Ryan. I'm saying publicly. They say they say they are willing to debate

I've never seen them debate. Maybe they haven't I don't know Clearly, I'm not

I don't run from debates I do a show where people can come in and debate me when I don't know there's a debate going on So I'm not running from it.

So But then we got into a thing where you and I went back and forth because your issue is not so much on the the continuation aside, but what you see is an extreme on the cessationist side and You you put out a challenge to debate, you know three guys

Justin Peters Scott annual and Nathaniel Jolly now,

I don't know much about Scott, but I my point was that well Justin Peters is really clear.

He doesn't debate Especially with believers and so and I don't think

Nathaniel's ever did a debate So I was kind of like hey Why don't you debate someone that wants to debate and I had forgotten that you you were like, hey,

I'm a cessationist I thought you were trying to debate them on it and you were like no, I'm this is oh, that's right.

So But you have some concerns with what you see And you tell me if this is fair that you see as an extreme position from folks on our side that you feel either and I want make sure

I order it that you either feel are going too far or or Maybe need to be balanced.

Would that be fair? Yeah, that's that's that's fair. I think that's that's a nice summary in general

So what I'm looking at is this so the the idea of cessationism Of course, we would say okay.

Well you you you see it in the scriptures, but really it's not codified as as an actual term or thing until the 17th century and When you look into let's say the 17th century or even the 16th century, especially

What you'll find is that you will find you will find theologians who will agree basically with what you just described as cessationism where you're saying okay, the the sign gifts or the revelatory gifts had a had a specific purpose in in the in the very initial phase of the apostolic era and and those gifts and I mean

Offices the Apostle office of Apostle prophet those things have since ceased Okay, so I think on that front.

Okay, everybody's kind of like yeah, we're on the same page But however, here's here's where it gets interesting is when you begin to look into how they viewed

What exactly that meant when these that when they say these things have ceased it? It's it's not as rigid as how we are defining it.

It's not as rigid It's not as inflexible a thing. So for instance, in fact, let me let me let me pull this up.

So this is This This this and I'm bringing this up because this is proof.

This is recent information as far as so I'm gonna I'm gonna give you some examples from the

Reformers regarding the offices themselves, so as far as the Apostles and The office of Apostle evangelist and prophets.

So those are called extraordinary offices typically Okay, so as opposed to the ordinary offices, which would be pastor and teacher so the extraordinary offices now

Here's from the 1577 second book of discipline. I'm a Presbyterian So this is this is this is pretty important stuff.

I mean this you're talking about the the When the when the when the

Scottish Church was overthrowing Rome The the church the government the church government that emerged was was

Presbyterian Church government and and it comes It comes to us through in large part some of these

Some of these these these books of discipline, okay So this Church of Scotland's 1577 second book of discipline.

This was written under Andrew Melville He says some of these ecclesiastical functions are ordinary and some extraordinary or temporary

Okay, so that's this cessation aspect There be three extraordinary functions the office of the

Apostle of the evangelist and the prophet which are not perpetual and have now ceased In the Kirk of God, so there's the idea again of cessationism at least when it comes to the officers except now and here's here's what

I was saying as far as just the nuance and The surprise that comes in here. It says except when it pleased

God Extraordinarily for a time to stir some of them up again and that of course is going to be a reference specifically to Luther and maybe

To others but John Calvin says the same thing John Calvin says still I do not deny

That the Lord is sometimes at a later period meaning after the apostolic period Raised up apostles or at least evangelists in their place as has happened in our own day, which is a reference to Luther Bootser, of course, whose

Martin Bootser was a very renowned figure in that whole era as well He says it may be that the Lord still provides this sort of ministry today meaning the apostolic ministry the prophetic ministry

And at all times, but we do not have so many of them nor do they may maintain in their apostolate

So powerful a spirit and so exalted a role as the first apostles did which is important because none of these guys and I want to clarify this because this is important none of these guys are saying that you are going to have a re a

Duplication of the twelve apostles you're not not none of these guys are saying that okay, but they are

Acknowledging they're recognizing that there are times when God does He does use men in an extraordinary way in a way that like you mentioned not normative

And that's something that would distinguish me from let's say a continuationist or a charismatic especially because when we're looking at some of these things and I'm saying there needs to be

There needs to be recognition or flexibility or understanding here Especially regarding not so much the opposite I think there's a place for that obviously just from looking at the reformed data

But especially when it comes to things like dreams and visions and we could talk about that But dreams and visions not so much as a gift

You know not so much as I have the gift of dreaming or I have the gift of having visions But as something that God continues to do and so and the same thing regarding just The the let's say the office of prophet what's interesting is guys like Samuel Rutherford who were an essential part of the?

The Westminster Assembly and of course from the Westminster Assembly even if you're not a

Presbyterian You know a lot of the second London Baptist Confession. They they admired the Westminster Confession of Faith It's a polite way of saying plagiarize

That's a nice way of saying plagiarize because Samuel Rutherford even speaks of this as as certain men such as John Huss Wycliffe Luther and then he mentions

George Wishart John Knox. He mentions these men as as Prophets okay, so My point is saying this there was another man named

Alexander Peyton that the Scottish Covenanters referred to as the Prophet Peyton my point is saying all of this is at the very least

We have to admit that The the the reformed church traditionally was much more comfortable

Discussing things like dreams visions angelic communications prophetic impulses is the way that it was described the office of Apostle the

You know prophets things like that they were much more comfortable bringing some of those things up Then then we are in our current version of cessationism

And so that's what I am trying to push back on because I think functionally I think it can it doesn't perhaps always for everybody, but I think it can

Hinder how we view the the work of God how he how he operates how he continues to?

And I'll use the word reveal things to his people today And I think it

I think that's where the discussion needs to happen okay, so a couple things that you brought up for folks listening to understand and The way

I word it is the gift of miracles versus the reality of Miracles right we we all

I don't know a cessationist that doesn't believe that God does miracles Okay, this is and this is what everyone always accuses us of It's the gift of it

Can God heal today? Yes Can Ryan Denton healed today? No that that's becomes the difference now and PR gonna say oh, but God could do it through Ryan, then it's not the gift and If he's doing if he's doing it through Ryan Then What's he really doing is it because Ryan prayed is you know like what what exactly is that so if so the the issue being is that We we have to be really clear on those sort of things

I think that the the two biggest confusions in this you mentioned prophet and We talked about prophecies and what most people that are continuationists when they refer to Prophecies, I think that's what we would call

Providence things that God orchestrates to work together and They go oh well see

I woke up in the middle night thinking of someone and I prayed for him and next day I found out he was in a car accident at that at that moment

And they'll call that a prophecy. I Would say it's God's Providence Right.

So I think that we we need to be clear on on definitions on both sides

So, let me let me ask it in one thing When you quote folks from 171800 why is it that they had a different view we have today?

Well we Even continuationists recognize that something changed in the early late 1800s early 1900s

Where there was a start of the these gifts where people started thinking they're normative

Okay, you're referring to people in history who at least a lot allowed for these gifts to continue or They didn't speak very often on it

Why do we have such a reaction today? Well because we have a charismatic movement that's putting it out there

Let me push back a little because the Reformers were very much in the middle of a lot of enthusiastic Expressions of what other people were calling like gifts such as the quietus and some of these more radicals that were out there and In fact the quietus that's where eventually you get the

Quakers from the quietus That that emerged from that so they're they're very much pushing back against that They also had the

Roman Catholics who were a lot of times claiming that the reason why We should be

Roman Catholic was because miracles were happening in their day And they were seeing things and they were seeing like the stigmata and things like that so so these were the

Reformers were very much in a world of people reacting against You know what what we would call

Cessationism in that sense so they had they had their they had their crazy charismatics then too Well, I think we're still much more comfortable discussing these

And going back to your idea of Providence, you know, they of course believed in Providence, but they also recognize prophecy

Okay Yeah, and I mean one thing we both agree The Reformers are not scripture.

I Mean that I mean we're ultimately we're gonna get our doctrine from scripture, but you're you're highlighting what?

others before us had believed So it it doesn't make it Absolute, but it provides that hey, this is not unusual is what for folks understand why you're doing it

Exactly in a lot of because a lot of our you know Our understanding of cessationism relies on some of the things that they had they had they had knocked together and they had they had worked through So that's why to me if in other words the term cessationism was not invented by Justin Peters You know and he knows we all know that and I'm saying that tongue -in -cheek

But the term itself goes back to the 17th century And so that's that's why I think it's important to when we're using the term cessationism

We're recognizing. Yes, they're there to say they were cessationists, but they were cessationists according

I mean to I have a you know, there's there's I'm sure you've heard of some of these quotes But there's tons of quotes like Kevin de

Young says without a doubt the Westminster Confession teaches cessationism The reformers taught cessationism, but it's the cessationism which requires considerable nuance and allows for supernatural surprises

Working with and through the Word of God and when he says that he means things like Prophetic impulse he means things like dreams and visions

Nick Needham, of course, that's the same thing Nick Needham He's a reformed Baptist historian and he says some of the later cessationist ideas should not be read back

Into the Reformation era while the Reformers were quite clearly not met modern charismatics they were also not so suspicious of the supernatural which of course, he's he's referencing as you know a knock maybe on some of our cessationism today

And that's the point that I was trying to say we have to We have to understand the Reformers and what they're responding to in their day

What we're dealing with is not what they were dealing with and so our response is to this to the continuationist today right

Going back though. They did have their continuationist back in those days as well and And and you know, they had the inner light people.

They had the the the spiritualist they had Yeah, what would become eventually like the Moravian movement?

so They had these they had these these these sects of people that were very loud

The Roman Catholics may be in the loudest that they of course were were rejecting and yet they were still

They were still able to nuance all of this and say yes, but let's not go to the extreme of denying things such as Like we we've seen in the data regarding dreams and visions and prophetic what they described as prophetic impulses things like, okay

So you've come to the dreams and visions a couple times. I think that's a central thing for you

So what what is your concern? With what you refer to as a hyper cessation ism first define it for folks

Explain the difference you see between cessation ism hyper cessation ism. And then what do you think is the danger? Well, I think it goes back hyper cessation is is in a lot of ways what we're describing

So it's it's the it's the cessation ism. That is more rigid and and less flexible less nuanced than the cessation ism of the 17th century because again if that's where our understanding of cessation ism comes from and they were very

Open and understanding of or flexible to the idea of how God operates even to the extent of recognizing there might be

Seasons where God raises up Apostles and prophets so these were these were the the catalysts you could say for what we now consider cessation ism and So I would consider anything that is not using that term or put it this way using the term cessation ism in a more rigid way that would be to the right of that now

I've used hyper just because I Don't I don't really know of another term to use we can call it neo cessation ism.

We can call it. I don't know You know Contemporary cessation is I don't know

I'm not real concerned about the term so much as I am just saying when we when we speak of these things

I think it's important to really flesh out the fact that there there is there is a

There is room in other words for some of these other things such as like like we've where I've been mentioning dreams and visions

Going back to your second question. What is the danger here? I think the danger is is it really leads down?

it leads us down a road of Now I'm not I want to be careful here because I'm not claiming any

Hypercessation is is a deist or anti supernatural. I want to be certain on that. Okay, and like you said,

I totally understand And I agree that I don't know of a single cessation is at least that's alive today that denies miracles that denies that God is

Operating that God moves, but I think functionally and practically how we see the world.

I think it does lead to a more deistic Reference of reality or you could say a more anti supernatural view of reality

Now how how does that you know? I think on the more extreme side the problem there was would be we don't want to quench the spirit

Nobody wants to quench the spirit, you know, none of the no nobody none of the men that I've been dialoguing with on this subject want to quench the spirit and and I believe they're brothers and I And I appreciate a lot of their work against the hyper charismatics that being said though.

I do think that hyper cessation ism does I Would say inevitably leads you down that path whether you get there all the way probably not but is it possible that we're quenching the spirit or we may quench the spirit by Going in that direction.

I would say yeah, I think that that's certainly more possible the the issue being if If God's Word says he's not going to do certain things.

It wouldn't be quenching the spirit to say I Don't think he's giving these gifts because he says he's not now we

Much of the debate and really it comes down to first Corinthians 13 8 and following where he says

Three gifts are gonna stop right the gifts of languages the gift knowledge gift who isn't they will cease That's where you get the word cessation is

Well, that's what we're gonna have a lot of and I think this is the you know this is where it gets fun you could say because now you're talking about these in interpretations of these certain passages that Even amongst cessationist there's disagreement regarding.

Yeah, it's 13 regarding Hebrews 1 Yeah, you mentioned it Justin Peters and I Disagree with what the the perfect the teleos is there.

I Take that to be the canon And and it basically it's because of the rules of interpretation, right?

You have to What you have to do is put together He's making a point of something that's going from partial to complete.

That's what teleos means It's the idea of not perfection, but something being matured

Perfected Completed and and that's what he says. He says we know in part we prophesy in part

But when the teleos comes well that the partial will be done away with so that the prophecy and the knowledge is a partial thing so whatever whatever wisdom and profit and profit or the the knowledge and prophecy is the teleos completes it and so Prophecy being you know,

I think a lot of folks would agree. It's the deals with Revelation and so I think that these are revelatory

What a lot of people do is take the next three verses 11 12 13. Well, I live really 11 12

What he's doing there is illustrating the idea of partial to complete but people take oh they say face to face and They because they see that they say well that's got to be a personal encounter where they see the word perfection and say well, that's got to be

Jesus and You know or I'll know as I'm fully known and rather than seeing those as illustrations of the main point in verses 9 and 10

They take the illustrations As the main point and then you interpret the main point from what should be the illustration

And then that's where like a Justin and John MacArthur come to the view that it's the the You know the return of Christ Is there anyone that agrees with you on that passage, oh man,

I mean Justin Justin Peters old pastor Jim Osmond for one but yeah,

I mean there's a lot that do and the but the issue is is that I'm dealing with it from the context and looking at illustrations and following the rules of Interpreting an illustration which is you don't go beyond its what it's illustrating and what the child

Looking in a mirror dimly. It's not that the points not looking face -to -face It's the comparison of it looking dimly versus looking face -to -face

Knowing partially versus knowing fully being like a child versus being an adult They're each illustrating the very

Meaning of the word tele us and so as Illustrations we don't interpret them beyond the point that they're illustrating which is something is coming to completion a child coming to adulthood

Looking in in polished metal not the mirrors we have today versus looking even in this camera

That the dimly versus clearly Knowing partially versus knowing fully It's all illustrating

What versus nine and ten say it's partial to complete? so the the only thing really has to be is what is the partial and the partial is the the knowledge and prophecy so the

Telehouse has to be tied to that because it completes that right and when that comes miners take on this

I Have seen it many years ago. I don't I'm not super familiar with it Well, I mean to me

I don't see how you could read that in any other way but the return of Christ What it let me ask you this.

Let me ask you this because if Part of this is okay. So on the gifts on some of that We're gonna be an agreement as far as the normative even how they operate

I think there'll be agreement in some ways, but let me ask you this if you go to let's say acts to When he's quoting from Joel From Joel.

What's your take on that? Because that's that's uh, that to me is is is the reason why

I Think the Reformers were very much over the target when they were at least acknowledging again, not normatively but they were acknowledging that God continues to to to operate as far as communicating through dreams and visions in a in a

Circumstantial way not on the same level as scripture way but on it in a circumstantial way. So what? And I'm just wondering for my own curiosity how you would take let's say acts to Verse 17.

Do you think so? Do you think we're in the last days still? Well, okay. So let me just read for the audience

It says and and it shall be in the last days. God says that I will pour out my spirit on all mankind

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Your sons and daughters will prophesy your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams so There's a couple things and I'm gonna have a little bit of a different take then you'll hear from many and I'll explain why but I I would say that what this is is

He's again The writing of scripture is when we see these things That's why

I don't call him Apostolic gifts because we saw the same type of miraculous gifts in Moses's time in Elisha and Elisha's time.

Okay so the the my Point is that he a he doesn't recite the whole thing of the

Joel what Joel said So there's there's some future things there. I think that the key and and where I'm gonna give you what you may not hear before is because of My Jewish upbringing because of my

Jewish thinking being raised that way But big part of what we would think of as the new covenant

Jeremiah 29 Ezekiel is the idea that the Holy Spirit wouldn't dwell We wouldn't need a priesthood and that's the that would be a big deal.

So him saying he's pouring out his spirit on sons and daughters to be able to prophesy

Well, that would be something only priests could do So the this is

I see what Joel was saying is going back to what Jeremiah said what Ezekiel said about the new covenant?

So are we in the last days? I think Paul said we were that he was in the last days.

It's just a really long last days That I agree but that would mean to me that that would mean that we

You know as far as your sons and daughters shall prophesy your young men shall see visions your old men shall dream dreams in the last

Days, that's gonna take place. Yeah But it did take place in you know when the

Apostles were alive I and and this is where with some cessationists,

I would disagree where they I'm as But not just a cessationist, but also a dispensationalist.

I know don't shoot me But I Wouldn't I could see when

Christ returns for the Millennial Kingdom new revelation. Now, there's some that would disagree with that but I don't see why there couldn't be

I mean, yes, Christ will be physically reigning, but He could give more revelation.

He could give Miracles to people for that revelation You might be more continuationist than I am

Say not at all as far as revelation new doctrine new ethics There's no new revelation on that level now.

I'm And I'm with you when it comes and I don't think that's what you're saying. But but you know, I'm I'm I'm definitely

And I have been beating the drum for the the idea of two -tier revelation

As far as you have the immediate type that God communicates on an apostolic infallible level, but then you also have revelation in the sense of lowercase are

God Continues to I would say give us impulses gives us

Leadings of the Spirit seen I would I would call that Providence. That's the distinction

Yeah, see and that's that's where when I listen to The guy is like the remnant radio, right?

I'm listing them going that's Providence That's what we would historically refer to as Providence.

And I think there's a mixing of those I don't deny that that God could give impulses. It was funny

We had the only guy I've really debated often on this is Matt slick He's a continuationist and it was really funny

Matt and I are sitting there having lunch with this third guy he's one of my board member he's been on both of our boards and And this guy's trying to get a word and Matt and I are just going back and forth and if you know

Matt and I We could talk and and this guy's trying to get a word and Matt's arguing for a continuation for the gifts continuing

I'm arguing that they ceased and this guy wants to say something and he like he cuts in and matches goes

Hold on a second and he goes look Andrew I think they continue but I agree that we shouldn't see them as normative today and I'm like Matt I Think they ceased but I agree.

They shouldn't be normative today. This poor guy is like that's what I've been trying to say for 10 minutes Like Poitras talks about that a lot as far as if you this is what think check this out

So Poitras says this about so Richard Gaffin, of course is a cessationist or a cessationist Wayne Grudem Of course the continuation is he says people debate about whether prophecy quote -unquote prophecy in the

New Testament and the early church Was divinely inspired and infallible did it possess full divine authority

Richard Gaffin says that it was that it was inspired Wayne Grudem argues that it was not inspired he says many people believe that the outcome of the debate is crucial for the future of the

Charismatic movement now Poitras is a cessationist He's not a charismatic, but he says actually the outcome of the debate makes very little practical difference today

He says and he gives the example. Okay, so you take you take you take

Grudem's view such prophecy is fallible. It's not identical with the inspired prophecy of the Old Testament It's in fact a spiritual gift for speaking fallibly through non -discursive processes, etc

I'll just summarize it for him and he actually says this he says hence it is just information and has no special Authority hence

Grudem ends up with substantially the same practical conclusions as does Gaffin the disagreement is merely over the label given to the phenomena and about whether the

New Testament Phenomena were identical or merely analogous to the modern phenomena And so that's basically what you're saying as far as but but I would argue

I mean I would push back a little though because I going back to the word prophecy again I would argue the reformers were and revelation

They were very much more comfortable using those words revelation and prophecy in a way that did not mean like a capital

P profit or Capital R revelation. Yeah, and so the issue I have with using the term

Revelation for example or prophecy is the fact that When they say well

I have a prophecy but it doesn't have it's not inspired Well, if if it is a revelation a prophecy that's coming from God It has to be inspired because that's what inspired means what makes it

Infallible is the source of it being God Not as the guys on remnant radio say the interpretation and that that's they're kind of out is to say well

It was I interpreted it wrong God's prophecy isn't misinterpreted you know, it's it was it was spoken and so the the thing is is that What we end up seeing is that?

When they say well only 85 % of the profit the quote -unquote profits today

Are are accurate like 85 % of prophecies come true Then the scripture says you stone them because it has to be a hundred percent

That's why it had to be a hundred percent like there wouldn't be a command to stone people for getting a prophecy wrong

If it didn't have to be this was the way of testing whether it's from God right it that it's accurate

So when they say that they have a lowercase P prophecy or like they don't want to compare it to scripture now

I'm okay with saying like there's some people that will say That well, if you had a prophecy or a revelation, you should add it to scripture

Well, not everything that Christ said is written down Right and yet everything he spoke is revelation

Because it's the source Correct Correct. Yeah, not every so so just the fact that there's a revelation doesn't mean it has to be added to scripture

I think that's a bad argument but every every revelation from God Has to be equal in authority to the scriptures because of the source of it

Yeah, that's that's fair. I think When you're talking, yeah, I mean because what you're doing is you're bringing out the fact that it's how can you?

How can you say? Revelation is fallible. Like if I have a let's say

I have a prophetic impulse. I Think I do. I'm not sure and I say hey, this is a fallible

Let's say a dream. Maybe that's even clearer. Let's say I have a dream like flavor I mentioned on the Keith Foskey podcast that label would have these dreams and whenever he had these certain dreams

They would usually turn out to be correct and he he would operate According to the dreams he has now

He was always bringing those dreams to others so that they could help him out and try to figure out Hey, is this like what do you make of these things?

And there was actually disagreement between flavor and some of these guys regarding how to interpret these things And I think to the remnant radio guys to their point on this

I think in this when I think in this case, I I think they're more

I think they're closer to what you see amongst the reformers then then then then the opposite view which is there's no such thing as God doing this because You can look at the monographs and Like from from a guy like Milne and some of these other guys and they'll say that when the divines pin their

Cessationist clause this is a quote. They were operating with a conscious distinction between two types of revelation one of which they deemed had ceased and is infallible one of which continued which is

Fallible, which is not an infallible. So it's not on the same level of Scripture and that's going so in other words

I now the remnant radio guys Where they would where their take would disagree with the reformers is how normative this stuff is

Mm -hmm, but I think as far as how they're viewing how it works I do think that it's closer to the reformers than then maybe like our can our

Contemporary continue a cessationism is see, but I just think I'm closer to the Bible so they could be closer to the reform

I agree. We're in the last days. Mm -hmm. I also see that as saying that that is going to continue well

But then you have and this is when I debate Matt slick first Corinthians 1 7

He would always bring up and it says this So that you are not lacking any gift eagerly waiting the revelation of our

Lord Jesus Christ and he will point out the word gift. There is charismata So he'll say you're not lacking any charismatic gift until the day the

Lord returns My in my debate with him what I said is that's fine The church isn't lacking now.

The question is does the church have a need for it? Because the church may have had a need when the scripture is being written

But now that we have the the canon we don't need this. So we're not lacking anything.

So the word lack requires a need that's the very definition of the word and That's where even some of the charismatics in the in the audience told me that they thought

I won the debate just on that point So the next time Matt and I debated he's added. He actually added a lot of things

Not as much as you had but he did I had a lot of the Reformers in their views of of the gifts but the the thing though is is that as as we look at it,

I Think The the the nudgings or the feelings see

I think that's that's God's providence providential work but when you have people that have dreams and And They put it this way

I Used to date a girl in college Who is very into the horoscope because she'd read her horoscope every single day and every day.

It was right and what got her to finally stop was that I made her read all 12 horoscopes every day and She discovered all 12 were right every day

Because they're they're so general that when you're looking to make it happen, and I had a guy he liked flannel

Says he's got lots of dreams and he actually would write them down in a book and he says they a lot of them come

True. I said, what do you do with the ones that don't come true? He goes. Well, I just wait for them to come true And so what he's doing is he's writing it down.

He's looking for things. He could say well, that's what the dream was about and The the you will have that in the

Old Testament where they looked forward to Christ and yet they would didn't even see How some of that was gonna be fulfilled they didn't understand their own prophecies and I get that but I think that often when it comes to dreams and things like that that are subjective it becomes an issue where Do it was

I remembering it, right? I mean one of the issues I had with Matt slick was you know, Matt tells a story of what he claims

Is he got a prophecy? now People can test this go back in history and read all the times he's talked about that story it the account has changed

Now he told me in one of our debate. I remember it vividly our every detail when

I first talked to him about it She this woman he gave a prophecy She met him years later and came up to him and he didn't remember meeting her didn't remember any of it

She told him the details and then he remembered it Now the issue

I said to him because he's his his argument is he's a man of God I agree with it You know, he'll be like I'm a man of God.

I'm not lying these things these things happen, you know Why would you doubt it? I said well because that's not the test right?

The test is the scripture I'm looking at what you say verse scripture, but the reality is Did she plant a memory because I actually met a guy who?

He does like hypnotism type of stuff But he told me he says I can plant memories and in people and we're on the boardwalk and He was he literally told me that I'm gonna plant a memory that I met a person at some event that I know their uncle and Like literally walked up and he starts talking to this person and where they like to vacation and they mentioned some pond any and he's

Like you know, and he literally was making it up and I watched this girl Start to remember supposedly that they met she even told him what he was wearing and he just played along with that and I and I realized our memories are not what we think.

That's what I'm looking forward to having when we have a perfect memory Ryan you may have this but I can't wait to see all the people

I handed gospel tracks to Shared the gospel to and I think I'm gonna like instantly see them and be like hey

I remember sharing the gospel with you and they're gonna go. I remember you give me that gospel track, right? You know and so when it comes to the visions and dreams,

I think it's very subjective now I know because I did listen to your

Calvinist podcast I I invited you on and then I saw that you were on with Keith Fosca on your Calvinist and one of the things you brought up was is all the

Visions dreams in the Middle East and I Have I've looked into some of them

Some of them it's I go, okay you look at these guys and they're there they had a dream of Christ But they're going to heretical churches

You know Could that be a demon could be I don't say it is that's one thing that I'm careful with Right.

I know there's some people that say oh when you speak in tongues, it's demonic. I know all the things that No, but some of it could be

There's a lot that it could be Okay, but we tested with scripture when they start when they're saying they had a vision and that vision led them apostate then no right however, there are things like there there was one person who had a dream that he needed to go to a

Certain road to meet a man who is gonna give him a book and a guy You know the guy standing just in the street and some guys, you know, some missionaries car breaks down his cars filled with Bibles And gives him a

Bible Now, well, let me ask you a question because that brings up a good point You mentioned earlier that you you believe in miracles

But you believe miracles continue to happen. God still uses miracles works in miracles But would you also agree as scripture tells us that that even demons can counterfeit miracles demons can do miracles they can they can do things like that and the reason

I bring that up is because You you so you have on the one hand you have the legitimate thing called a miracle from God but then you also have a counterfeit thing that is conjured up by Satan and and so I would argue the same thing regarding dreams and visions and And nudges or impulses anything like that because on the one hand, yes

Could it be a counterfeit? Could it be Satan? Could it be a delusion? Could it be yes a subjective thing that has nothing to do with any of this?

Yes, I think it could be but at the same time, I don't think that negates the fact that God still communicates at times through dreams and visions

So in other words, yeah, there are counterfeits, but that doesn't that doesn't correct preaching, you know

You have you have counterfeit preachers, but that doesn't mean all preaching. Yeah, it doesn't negate it, but Let me push back on you a bit and ask the question

When you say communicate see that's that's the thing where I guess

I have the sticking point I can see God's Providence That he puts he puts something on your mind puts a person on your mind

Just at the time that they need prayer and you he puts that person on your mind and you pray for them That's not a communication.

I think When I think of that that's the Holy Spirit working through you Yeah, and that could be

Semantic wise, I'm totally fine with that. I would be fine with that. I would you know, whether it's You know impression nudging.

I always think the word nudge is a little yeah But yeah, so I but I'm with you

I think a lot of this is semantics I think in fact, here's a good quote from Schreiner He says what most people what most call prophecy in churches today in my judgment isn't the

New Testament gift of prophecy It's better to characterize what is happening today as the sharing of impressions rather than prophecy

But again, he goes on and he basically makes the case that you know, I mean what what some people call prophecy I'm calling it.

I'm calling impressions so -and -so calls it a you know communication and I agree with you that that might the word or even

Revelation the problem of course is with revelation and I agree with this is that unless revelation is very

Defined then it could be very misleading and I think that is one of the problems with the word revelation I I don't have a problem using it because it's the way the

Reformers spoke about it But I think of course in our context it does require a lot of a lot of defining and definition same thing, of course with communication, but Same thing.

Yeah, I guess maybe impressions is it does it does sound like it's a lower form of God Moving on us

I guess you could say in other words, it's not like this infallible Theophany necessarily.

It's something that's more subjective as far as the impression goes So I'm with you.

I'm with you on that front, but I still going back to kind of maybe just to follow the thread of some of this when when

I still see in our contemporary cessationist world a a real

Not so much reluctance, that's one thing but even a discarding I would say a discarding of Things like some of these things that we're discussing such as dreams such as the visions in the

Middle East I'm totally I mean I would be the first to tell you that there needs to be Scrutiny when it comes to any of these things and I think the

Reformers were very much in the same category of course they were but I at the same time think that where we can be a little better at is recognizing that God actually still does operate and do these things and and be okay with that and be comfortable with that Well see, but like at least some of the names you mentioned

I'll speak of two of them because I know them personally, right? Nathaniel Jolly and Justin Peters Justin. I don't think anyone to regular listener here would be surprised

He's a personal friend of mine someone I know well someone I've traveled with so I know

I know him Well, he believes mirror that God still does miracles But I do think and and I'll be curious if you you agree

I think a lot of what we're seeing is people that are responding to to a Well a lack of discernment on the continuation aside

I had an interesting conversation with Michael Brown over this and I said look Where you accuse us cessationists as lacking in grace because we're too hard -line for you.

I view that Continuationists lack discernment because anything goes and and he actually said it's a valid point and I think that to the point you were just making

I think what you're seeing is people who are responding to the the lack of discernment in the charismatic circles to where anything goes to everything's a dream where They they will even if they're not

Charismatic so much of it has influenced even Non -charismatic people.

I remember in a Wednesday night Bible study a guy asked for prayer Because as he said it

He had a co -worker who did something wrong His boss comes to him and says hey,

I know you're a Christian I want to know what happened and this guy said that the

Lord told him to lie to the boss So that he could witness to the co -worker

And I was like that wasn't the Lord's never going to tell you to lie, okay I've heard people say that the

Lord said, you know I should divorce my wife and marry this other woman that I'm not married to that kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly I mean, that's that's horrendous stuff. But but the response there is not it's kind of like what

Paul says You know, we're the the response is not well, we throw everything out He says do not quench the spirit.

Are you tired of pillows that go flat or every couple of years you they smell bad

And what are you gonna do with him? You can't wash them because that ruins the pillow They don't stay in that same shape.

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SFE Not despise prophecies but test everything so it's not you know, the the

It's not the rejection of the whole thing, but it's testing it's refinement. It's acknowledging that there are counterfeits but you

I mean Would you agree that? when especially people are making a major part of their ministry to respond to You know the extremes that they could they could go a little bit too far

Just I think that's what we're saying man. I think that is the issue that we're seeing I think that sometimes you you you go you go so hard and you do good ministry and I Mentioned earlier

Justin Peters has done incredible ministry when it comes to the hyper charismatic exposing some of that exposing a lot of that I think he does a great job.

And I think he is a sweet guy man. He's he is a very humble guy There's no doubt in my mind he's he's he is a brother of course, but I think on this issue

I I do think that he's gone. I think he's gone a little far for sure and I think yeah, of course,

I think there is it I think it is because of the The reaction that that you know,

I would call it an overreaction a knee -jerk reaction see, I don't know that it's knee -jerk as much as when you see so much of the

So much of Christianity Totally crazy going in and and start him because what they're doing is they're taking so I think so many of them are taking their own thoughts and Attributing it to God get making it spiritual making it authoritative

I mean when I was in college and I've shared this on this podcast before but I had this guy who he he really wanted to date this one young lady, but she was engaged and I remember sitting there

We're have we're praying and he got a quote word from the Lord unquote and Wouldn't you know that the word he got from the

Lord was that she was gonna marry him exactly what he had wanted and I was

I remember questioning that because I said look we all know you like her and And now you suppose like if someone else got that word

I think it's different than you getting that word But but they and she broke off the the relationship and married this guy now, by the way, they're divorced today so But it's like well this

I have to do that. I mean the Lord spoke you see and I'm less abuse well

That's an abuse of the spirit that spiritual abuse that is that is You know, you talk about quenching the spirit that's certainly quit that's

I mean that see but that's all too common See, but that's all too common But it was common in Paul's day too and yet Paul didn't say throw it all out

But see but but like some of the guys that you mentioned aren't saying throw it all out. No Right.

I mean Justin doesn't say God doesn't do miracles He would agree with me that God doesn't give the gift of them

The category of miracles is is You know, that's not a catch all though for dreams and visions as well

I mean for him, it's strictly as far as I know, it's strictly miracles, you know, it's strictly hey if I pray for somebody

Who's sick then God potentially? Yes, he could heal that person. I grant that but I'm I'm talking more about Immediate Revealing media revelation media not immediate but media in the sense of God still

Gives things like Impulses or or impressions or Leadings, however, we want to describe that and then and then on a more dramatic scale things like dreams and visions now going back

To the normative thing according to the Reformers from my reading I don't see them seeing this as that normative, but I do

I do see them saying you know What it still happens and so but it does but it doesn't happen as a gift

Correct, and I think every and that's where I think we're all in agreement as far as that goes now I would when it comes to Yeah, because I mean dreams that that was never a gift anyways or visions correct is still something like according to acts to that's why

You know it comes out. That's why I have a real problem with The hardcore hardline stance of saying nope.

God does not give dreams. He does not operate through visions Well if we're still in the last days

Which I think we all agree we are then to me the consistent exegesis is to acknowledge that you know

What God still does do that? unless well God can still do what

God because not outside of his nature Okay, so he could still do whatever he wants but he doesn't give that gift and I Go back to that because that's where I think so much of the issue is when they talk about the continuation of spiritual

Gifts, I don't think that continued. I think it stopped God does it and and he could do it you pray

And he didn't mean Justin Peters talks about a case with a young girl who? He thinks got healed

But God healed it it wasn't they did they pray for their yeah, they prayed, but God did the healing

Well in a lot of that is semantics too because when you talk to more of the moderate continuationist, they'll say well

Yeah, we agree Yeah And I think you know that you know God healed him But he he used so and so and I think even when it comes to prophecy for instance.

Let's take let's take the gift of Prophecy I think that'd be interesting Case study because when you have a guy like Rutherford said hey

I think John Knox was a prophet or Alexander Peden was a prophet or John Huss was a prophet and you say well well

What that comes down to is is in a sense semantics because I think for them what they were looking at is that there was a consistent

Without using the word gift there there was a there was a consistent expression of Prophecy that came true in the ministries of these men and so I think for the moderate

You know some of these more level -headed Continuationist what they're doing is they're saying Someone who has the gift of prophecy is is someone like a

John Knox or an Alexander Peden who? consistently periodically

Demonstrates a prophetic ability and therefore so in other words They don't see it as something that's resident within the person that he is just going around prophesying over everybody

I think that's that's the wacky charismania stuff Which makes the conversation very convoluted because you you have so many you have so many different takes amongst every group out there

But but I think for instance like the guys on remnant radio are going to They're going to say that the gift of prophecy is not something that's resident the gift of healing is not something resident within the person so that they can just go to the

Children's hospital and heal everybody and I think that's kind of where some of the semantics We run into that problem again because I would say yeah

It's not a gift then right because I mean if you have the gift of teaching It's not oh, I only get that gift at the pulpit or I only get that gift at certain time

No, you have the gift of teaching and mercy and giving and so so the issue being is there there becomes two different they recognize it's two different types of gifts, right and And they they end up saying okay the prophecy done in the

Bible's not the prophecy done today Then it didn't continue because it's different right. It's a different thing but the

I Think that we we have some agreement with as far as a lot of this is semantics we have same concerns on the side of those who are on the continuation of side, especially the extreme side where they are

Saying they speak for God and think and and I think that a lot of what you're responding to are people and you correct me if you think

I'm wrong are people who are Regularly correcting slash responding to the people who are promoting the continuation ism and where they're responding to what they see as a lack of discernment a lack of Carefulness to to question their own claims with the

Word of God and in therefore there they they are coming off in What you're interpreting

I think is a more hard line than I think they actually are You know, yeah, that's how

I would describe it and if they are not that that that's great And I and I've tried to say from the beginning

I'm rooting for these guys I don't have any vendetta against any of these guys. I think they're all great guys And so I think we're all on the same team but I do think that there's

I think I think for all of us we have imbalances and I think this is an imbalance amongst the

In the cessationist world, I think sometimes The and this is really the issue. It's not so much just a person, you know, like a

Justin Peters kind of thing So in other words when we are promoting Cessationism if we don't nuance some of that then we're giving off a cessationism.

That's actually It doesn't actually do justice to the reformers that use the word cessationism

Yeah, okay Category, I think there needs to there needs to it needs to shift a little bit back towards a more in a more supernatural direction well

Yeah, I but again I I don't know that at least the guys that I know are not denying the supernatural and I know that's your fear

I don't I don't think they are But I have a feeling that you and I could could talk even more about this.

So let me ask you this Would you be willing to come on to a longer show on my apologetics live show where then we would actually engage with audience questions as well

Yeah, I think that'd be great I think that'd be a lot of fun so we'll we'll schedule some time for you to come on a

Thursday night and And and continues because this has been I think that we've had some disagreement.

We've had a lot of agreement I think that I think we have some similar concerns

With folks on both sides or the extremes on both sides I I don't

I don't think that I agree completely with you that at least some of the names you mentioned. I don't think

Are to the point that I think you you're fearing that they are And who knows maybe maybe they'll come on and defend themselves like that, you know, but but in a discussion way

I I mean at least Yeah, yeah, and I think they're there would actually be better if it's offline but you know

Because I think I think that in a long -form discussion You'd see that I think some of the fears you have at least of the guys you mentioned

I think are probably not I Think are not well -founded you could disagree with me

So so Ryan let folks as we wrap up any any last words you want to say and let folks know if they want to You know, maybe go to your church or find out more about you how folks can get ahold of you

Easiest ways to go to Ryan Denton calm and or you can go to Twitter my handle on Twitter is

Texas preacher or you can find me on Facebook under my name and And if you want to send an email you can go to if you go to Ryan Denton calm

There's a contact us page on there. You can fire off an email We always say any comments concerns criticisms emotional outbursts

Whatever you have more than willing to receive those and try to respond to those in a way that glorifies

God. So You know if we could be helpful any new anyway, just just reach out well one thing for sure you and Justin share is your amazing ability of Creativeness Justin Peters org

Ryan Denton calm. I mean you guys just the creativity is just there

And that's no joke I used to you used to be Christ in the wild ministries, but we lost the I Didn't keep up with with the domain name

So we lost that and then I thought you know, it's kind of a funny name because it's not technically Christ in the wild ministries

I'm the only one I Strip it all down and call it for what it is.

And so yeah, I mean go to Ryan didn't calm. There you go All right, well hey

Ryan, thanks for coming on folks. I hope this is has been helpful for you It I think that it's it's good and healthy for us to have discussions even when we disagree

Okay, and I think that I Hope if nothing else what this did was maybe provide for you in the audience an example of two guys who agree on some things disagree on some things you know,

I Some of the things Ryan saying it's like hey, these are personal friends of mine. Yeah, you know,

I Want to be more defensive because these are people I know well in love, right?

but we have to be able to have honest discussion and Respectful discussion.

I hope that this was a good display of that. Let me let you guys know also of some events coming up The roadmap to revival if you want to check that out just search for a roadmap to revival put on by CRBC that is

Jeff Rice's church there in Tullahoma, Tennessee That's going to be

September 12th to the 14th So if you guys can make it out there Tickets are available right now.

So just search for road map to revival and you'll get those also want to let you know that if if you are around the

That same weekend if you can't make it to Oklahoma if you're in the

Pennsylvania area Philadelphia area more specifically Striving for eternity, even though I will not

I will be out at the roadmap to revival But one of our other speakers Aaron Brewster will be doing something in actually in my home church

And that is Oxford Valley Chapel there in Levittown, Pennsylvania So if you want you can make it out again,

September 12th to the 14th He's gonna be covering a number of topics about our responsibility in the world to our family to our church to others so Our responsibility to God so it's going to be a very good very

Edifying and equipping event. So if you want details just reach us reach out to us at striving for eternity org

We'll get you all that information so with that, I just want to encourage you guys to Reach out to Ryan get to follow him on on X and and see more what he's he is posting out there