The Art of Conversation: How to Engage with Your Muslim Neighbors

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Go to striving for eternity org Welcome to another edition of the rap report

I'm your host Andrew rap with the executive director of striving fraternity and the Christian podcast community of which this podcast is a proud member we are here to give you biblical interpretations and applications for the

Christian life and Today I have a guest on James remnant is someone

I heard on cross politic and I reached out to a friend of mine Gabe and said hey,

I want to talk with him Because it was such an interesting podcast and I know when

I was listening to it I said I have more questions in it that they didn't ask so James welcome to the rap report.

Would you mind just giving folks a little bit of an introduction of yourself and if you can

Because I heard you describe this on on cross politic explain how what your ministry is how you got into this

Yeah, thank you having me on. My name is James Raymond I'm the director of the

Almighty initiative The Almighty initiative is a Christian ministry dedicated to equipping the church to understand

Islam and engage Muslims with truth I'm originally from the Middle East of England Place called

Northampton. I've been living in Seattle since I was 21 and You know, basically my journey with Islam starts like many others in the

West after 9 -11 and I came home from school and my friend's mother was walking out of her house like in tears because at that point only one plane had hit one tower and Those of us in the house at least

I think with many others believe for 10 minutes or so There's just some tragic accident and then the second plane hit and the world as we knew it changed forever

At that point as an 11 year old boy Assam bin Laden's face being pluses every plastered everywhere was actually kind of exciting for me in some capacity of I'm honest with you because both my grandfathers were in the

British Air Force during the Second World War and The 90s seemed pretty boring compared to the past but when

I Started taking Christianity more seriously when I was 13, I think

Islam in my imagination went from a Sort of geopolitical enemy to a worldview theological enemy, but my

My approach was still very very shallow. I didn't really have any Muslim friends It wasn't until I was 20 that I had to do a college radio show project actually on Interviewing people on their views on the end of the world.

So I got an elder from my church. I found Some more missionaries and then

I thought it'd be fun to do a Muslim So I searched all around my British hometown for Muslim and I finally saw a

Muslim woman Working the T -Mobile store. So I said, hey, can I? Talk to you about your views in the end of the world for a college project.

I'll buy you subway We made friends Then I moved to America decided to really

Everything I knew about Islam at that point had come from other Christians Some a lot of him were doing a good job.

So we're not and it came from the media So I decided I should learn about Islam from the sources myself.

So I read through the Quran I listened through sahih al -bukhari sahih Muslim Which are more of the

Sunni Islamic source materials and then just had a conviction as a very academic exercise So from there,

I decided to crash the Muslim Student Association at the University of Washington Walked in super awkwardly partway through one of the meetings.

Everybody saw me come in This is in like 2012 and Then I got invited back and just kind of kept going to listen learn make friends and then have one -on -one conversations

All of this came to a head in 2017 I was saying hi to people off the church one

Sunday and I saw a woman leaving who I didn't recognize And I said, hey, I don't think we've met yet.

And she says what I Said we don't know each other. She says what

I Said we've never met before And she says no, this is my first time in I said great what brings you here she says

I Grew up Muslim decided and believe that anymore tried being nothing that felt empty.

Now. I'm here to try this. I Said great Where he from she says

Saudi Arabia. I said great which city she says you wouldn't have heard of it I'm like try me.

She says okay. It's a small town called Katif. I said, I know where that is I have a friend from Katif, which means you grew up as a

Shia Muslim, right? And she says how the hell did you know that I have so many questions. When can we talk?

so then That Friday we got coffee and the place she was at is she liked the vibe of church, but didn't quite get it

So she asked me as a Christian Do you believe the Bible and the Quran or do you only believe the Bible and I said

I only believe the Bible so she said okay if If the

Quran is not true, how do you think Jesus escaped from being crucified? I said he didn't and I just read her the last three chapters of Matthew and she says

Oh, it does say that he died and rose from the dead But what actual difference that makes my life

So I said, okay So in the Islamic version of things Allah loved Jesus so much that he rescued him from the cross

In the Bible's version of things God loved you so much that he put Jesus on the cross So if you trust in him, you can know with certainty that you're loved and forgiven and she said that makes so much sense to me

I believe that So then she started coming to church with us regularly and in the course of discipling her

We were gonna host a party for people who used to be Muslim and now Christian But she ended up hearing me pitching an event where Christians and Muslims can meet each other and hang out

So we did that during Ramadan we had 35 Christians and 35 Muslims Come to church for dinner, and we just had good conversations and basically everything has come from that So now we are training churches.

We're helping them understand what Islam is as a worldview who Muslims are as people and then Tangibly helping them meet their

Muslim neighbors and have meaningful conversations over the course of a lifetime So for some folks who know nothing about Islam Let's just give some background for folks you mentioned two different sects of Islam Sunni and Shia Could you give a quick?

overview for folks of the Differences and what are they and how did you know that she was?

just from the city which branch she was of Well, the only way

I person you about the specific city She was on is because I'd met another guy from that city like a year previously

So I just happened to know that in general though The Sunni world the

Sunni Muslims comprise 90 % of the Muslim population in the world

She is are about 10 % and Most she is are in Iran with another lot in Iraq, and then there's a good number in Lebanon as well

There's small communities of Shia in basically every Muslim country But the center of that is

Iran both on a population standpoint and on a geopolitical standpoint and For folks that are listening when we're recording

This is in the news these days Iran You know, everyone thought all

Israel's attacks around America attacks are in the whole Muslim world's gonna come against them against the

US and Israel because they're all Muslim and Yeah, they did that didn't happen and I said it

I didn't think it would happen and people were like afterwards How did you know wouldn't happen? I'm like you got to understand that it's these are not to they may be

Muslim But they're they've been worrying The Iran -Iraq war went on for many decades over the views of Islam Right.

It's a very close contender whether there's more animosity between Iran and Israel or Iran and the

Sunni states around it the The wounds run deep and the animosity runs deep as well

You know in the same way that I think for us as Christians. We almost have more frustration with professed

Christians flying a rainbow flag than we would with Like an atheist flying a rainbow flag, right because they're supposed to they profess the same things we profess theoretically

These differences make people more frustrated and that's the way it works with the Sunni Shia conflict. Yes, and The you know for folks to understand you said something there in the beginning that for many

It may be the first time they're hearing this. I will say what you could do if this is new to you

You can get my book What do they believe because I have the chapter on Islam and we talk about that there there that in in the

Quran the the idea That Jesus never died on the cross.

It was a look -alike It was so Allah made it look like it was

Jesus this is really it's it's one of those things I bring up often when speaking to Muslims because There is a verse that refers to Allah being the great deceiver now when you get the

English version There's some debate whether that's a deceiver or a planner But the way to avoid that debate over Arabic, especially if you don't speak

Arabic fluently and they do you you know is the fact that You know what

James mentioned there they believe that Allah Deceived his own followers into believing that Jesus went to the cross when he really didn't that's scary

Right, right now I Think if you look at the history of this this idea

Doesn't really originate from Islam it probably originates from the

Gnostics so There's a Gnostic text called the second discourse of the great Seth which basically uses

Very similar wording to the way the Quran Describes Jesus being a safe from the cross that there's some

So the Quran does not go into a lot of detail as to how that happens So this is something muslims been trying to solve for a long time

But it seemed to absorb this from Gnosticism and and for folks to understand Muhammad as he was coming up with this developing these thoughts hundreds of years after Christ the those he was in contact with Were not generally the genuine

Christians He was a merchant he would travel around he would talk to Jewish people he talked to I'm gonna put

Christians in air quotes because many of the Christians he interfaced with were heretics that were thrown out of the

Roman Empire and that's why in the Quran it will argue that We believe in a

Trinity a triunity of the Godhead They would say that that's three gods, but the strange thing is it describes the

Trinity is referring to the father the mother and the son and So there is a surah that will will actually ask

Allah is saying to to Jesus that I did I tell? you know people to worship you and your mother as God and And Anyone that knows

Christianity knows that's not the Trinity and it's that's a good question I to ask I don't know

James what you think about this But I usually will ask when I deal with someone that's Muslim one of the things ask is how does the

Quran define? what Christians call the Trinity and Who makes up the

Trinity because what I usually find is people who are born in America will define Trinity in the proper way and If they're born in a

Middle Eastern country where they haven't really interacted with Christianity they say what the Quran teaches

Yeah, a lot of Muslims grow up basically believing that Christians believe in father mother son basically because that is very similar to the

Arabic polytheism Muhammad himself was dealing with and And Now some

Muslims will make the argument that well, it doesn't literally think the Trinity is this it's making a hyperbolic argument against the sort of Catholic veneration of Mary that Existed at the time, but but really even the sort of Catholic veneration of Mary Really is a later development in Roman Catholicism as well

So I think the safest thing for Muslims to sort of shelter behind when it comes to this is how little information we have about what

Arabia is really like before Islam because it's There is some writing when it kind of comes in Fragmentary pieces so they can certainly make the argument that there are

Christian sects. We don't know about that The the Quran is refuting and If that's the case, then

They're not refuting us Here and now and then the Quran doesn't apply to that. Correct So that's their best kind of argument really?

Yeah, they do have a group That they will argue. Oh, they believed Mary was

God but the Point to make in that is but that's not

Christianity They even admit it was a very small subset of People that were thrown out of the

Empire for heresy So even if they were the ones he's speaking to he's referring to The people of the book the

Christians and it's like well, there's a problem there Right, and it's also speculative as well because there's nothing in the early

Islamic sources that would point to This being a heretical sect of Christianity that no longer exists like there's no differentiations made in the

Islamic sources doesn't mean it's completely impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely to me Correct, and and the only sources

I've I have ever seen for this sect of Christianity are from Muslim sources

The good news is striving for eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks

Teaching them biblical hermeneutics. That's right the art and science of interpreting

Scripture The bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover Jeremiah 29 11 should not be their life first to learn more go to striving for eternity org to host a

Bible interpretation made easy seminar in your area and So I have not been able to find anything outside of Islam to support that now it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

Because we've lost a lot of documents from antiquity but It is kind of suspect that the only sources are from Muslim sources to defend this argument that Christians make against them so James for folks who you we probably because this podcast goes around the world and so with that in mind

There's probably many who really don't have a good handle on on Islam Maybe they've like like you said 9 -eleven.

There were a lot of people that had questions In fact the way that my book, what do they believe?

Started was because of 9 -eleven After 9 -eleven the pastor of the church.

I was at he actually asked me would I Study the Quran so that I could teach the church what

Muslims believe and so what I did was So I come from a

Jewish background. I remember rabbi that tried converting converting me back to Judaism and he gave me tapes from this rabbi

Tovia singer And Tovia singer it would mix Roman Catholicism and Mormonism and describe that as Christianity I've I've always said for not always but for decades.

I have said that I will debate Tovia singer anywhere anytime without preparation he actually heard me say that and Contacted me it was ready to take me up on it until I think he sent someone one of his followers called me up and was like Oh, I I used to be a pastor.

I got to help you with your debate with Tovia The guy didn't even hear my full debate argument, but I guess it was enough

I found out later. He actually converted to Judaism and follows Tovia So after that Tovia has ghosted me

Tovia even created a banner like debate, you know former Christian or for Jewish Christian pastor versus Tovia singer, you know, and and then he goes to me and so I Emailed him and said hey because he moved to Israel.

I was like, hey, I'm gonna be in Israel You want to do a debate when we're there together? never responded and so But one of the things he did was he misrepresented

Christianity and he does that to people who don't know Christianity So when I started to study

Islam, I Only wanted to study from the Quran I did not want to look at Hadiths because that's where there's some differences in as we are talking with the different groups and sects of of Islam and So I wanted to be fair to what they believe and I ended up doing that with Islam and then because I was

Jewish I was asked hey, can you can you cover Judaism? Well, the Talmud is a takes a long time to read through and study so it took me longer

But you know, I ended up going through all these different religions but For many people after 9 -eleven all they knew of Islam is well when you die you get 70 virgins

I mean that that was it. It was like you die in a jihad in a holy war And you get 70 virgins

When in the afterlife and so for many that's the extent that they have an understanding of Islam Could you give provide for folks just like a quick thumbnail version of What is it that Islam police?

How does someone become a Muslim? Do they have to convert to it? What does that conversion look like?

So, how does someone become a Muslim? What is the the main premise that Islam would teach especially that which would be different than Christianity?

Okay, so basically the central premise of Islam is that there is one

God and absolutely one God who has created the world but differing from Christianity The world was not created perfect Adam and Eve were created in paradise and then sent down to earth when they sent and this is called the dunya and Instead of believing in original sin

Versa tainted with a sin nature from the time we're born Muhammad actually taught in Sahih al -Bukhari that everyone is born pure well in a state of what the

Muslims who are fitra or nature and then it's external forces that corrupt you from that so when somebody becomes a

Muslim Muslims say that reverting to Islam and That instead of converting because they believe everyone's born

Muslim So if you're born into a Muslim family The Shahada that confession that this one

God and Mohammed is mess You'll be whispered into your ear as you're born If you're an adult who becomes

Muslim then you have to say the Shahada three times in Arabic and that's how you become Muslim so the idea is if you're sort of born pure and this world is a test then the idea is to do as many good deeds as you possibly can and Do more good than bad in this world and on the

Day of Judgment Your good deeds are weighed against your bad deeds in the scale and if your good deeds are heavier that means paradise if your bad deeds are heavier that means

Hell at least temporarily if you're Muslim, but it's not just about good deeds

It is also about believing and finding the true religion of Islam So the

Quran says if anyone seeks a path other than Islam It will never be accepted from them Even though you'll find lots of Muslims that do believe that people from other religions go to heaven

Historic Islam does not teach and believe that so so so how we get here and what constitutes good deeds and bad deeds comes from both the

Quran and the Sunnah or the Hadith right and So the idea is that they affirm that God has spoken through Adam through Noah Abraham Moses through David and they also believe

Jesus is a prophet and That Muhammad is the final prophet and the seal of the prophets. So the idea is the prophets like a letter

God has written to mankind and then Muhammad is like that wax seal that stops anything else coming so they believe the religion is perfect is for all people in all time and that in order to be made right with God you must become

Muslim and then strive after good deeds and they believe salvation is a combination between Between God's grace and mercy and good deeds

It's not it's not works alone. A lot of people think it's about faith versus works. It's not it's a faith works combination and Then they believe they'll people who who serve

Allah correctly and pass the test will spend eternity with Allah ding -dong Jehovah's Witnesses ding -dong

Mormons Christian, are you ready to defend the faith when false religions ring your doorbell?

Do you know what your Muslim and Jewish friends believe you will if you get

Andrew Rappaport's book? What do they believe when we witness to people we need to present the truth

But it is very wise to know what they believe and you will get Andrew Rappaport's book at what do they believe dot -com

Yeah, much like Roman Catholicism. It's faith plus works. And I think the reason you have all these different religions that have to The majority of it is works, right that's the ultimate thing but Because man -made religions are going to add human effort to getting right with God But if they don't add the faith, well, then you could believe anything, right?

Right, so every one of these man -made religions that are used to control people

Will always have an element of faith because it's got to be you believe in their true faith

They're the only true religion and your works kind of keep you there and so right, right

It's an important thing for people to recognize. This is how you recognize the true religion from false, by the way folks is

Every man -made religion has human effort added to it in one way or another And what the

Bible teaches is Christ did all the work We can't add anything to it. In fact, if we if we try to add anything to what

Christ did it diminishes what he God -almighty who became a man dying on a cross

It diminishes what he did when he paid the fine that we owe which is eternity in a lake of fire

Well, he being an eternal being can can do that once in time. It would take us forever and So that's how you know a difference between the divine religion

Christianity and all the others. They add human human works And I would say that for any

Muslims listening the Muslim cultures Do you have an innate understanding of this to some extent because I was in Saudi Arabia about a month ago and when

I went to Riyadh I Spent seven dollars for my entire time in that city because of the hospitality

Like hospitality is a really really important part of their culture For a couple of reasons one is because they do genuinely love their guests but also even if they don't there's a there's a large sort of sense of honor by Providing everything for somebody and if somebody is paying for their own meal that is dishonoring the host, right?

So in the same way God is honoring himself by refusing to let anyone else bring anything for Salvation we simply accept as a guest then

For this is an important thing that you bring up because For folks here who may

I'm hoping James that you are going to influence some folks that do that end up saying by the end

Of this episode. Hey, I want to reach out to Muslims in my area One of the things to realize is they have a very

Large understanding of hospitality. It's a major part of their culture and You inviting them over To your house they're gonna usually they're gonna come and They're gonna be very respectful

Keep inviting them Right there in your house. They're gonna be respectful you get to talk but learn what they believe never one thing

I always tell people is don't assume what someone believes because even if they say they're Muslim Hey, we got we got a mayor may a candidate for mayor in New York City right now

And everyone's saying he's Muslim He supports LGBT most practicing

Muslims, which he claims to be Would not agree with his positions.

In fact They might want to throw him off a building Right, right, right

Zohran Mamdani is a product of a very interesting thing that's happened in the

American Muslim culture So there in some ways has been an alliance of convenience for For the sort of Muslim community in the left -wing community in America Which they have some common goals so they end up working together

But what's strictly supposed to be a professional relationship? We're a little intimate and now you have a generation of people who have a sort of hybrid ideology

Which has some sort of Islamic sprinkling on but is largely like left -wing in his ideology and this sort of Zohran Mamdani is one of those people

Yeah, and I and I think it's fascinating to see because like this is he's someone new

I'm going how do Muslims accept him You know He's in that culture

He's he's promoting himself as a Muslim and yet totally supporting things that Islam would be against Well, I think what you'll see in the

Muslim world and let's be let's be clear here This isn't something that only applies to the Muslim world, but there's a certain sense of tribalism to this as well right when it's

When it's kind of Muslims versus non Muslims, it tends to be us versus them

So for a lot of Muslims having somebody who's technically part of the group as the mayor of New York is a

Big deal for them. That's a win for the community But if you put him alone in a

Muslim community They wouldn't like him because he's Shia or because of his your actual views which are completely at odds with historic

Islamic orthodoxy, but because there's such a You know big deal of sort of group solidarity

It's it feels like a win for a lot of Muslims in New York yeah, and and this is a thing for for many to just to realize that I Don't want people to think of just because this guy's in the news and think this is what

Islam believes he's more of a Hmm trying to think of a good word.

I want to say freak but that wouldn't be more of a An anomaly

I Think of you know what we when we say what

Muslims would believe He I don't think he would represent what the majority of Muslims would believe or what would be faithful to the

Quran Right, he wouldn't but he would be much more representative of what a lot of Muslims in America actually do believe then you might think and What you saw in the last election like the presidential election is you're starting to have a little bit of a sort of Cold War between the sort of camps of Muslims who are sort of more historically grounded

Islamic theology and Then people who are sort of captivated by the American political scene and how much that's influencing their theology

So it's not yeah, he's not I wouldn't say he's an anomaly like At least not in the time and place we live now

There's more and more people who like this, but he certainly doesn't represent historic Islam. Yeah, and and when

I You you're more up -to -date with American Islam than I am because my study of Islam comes from studying the

Quran studying Hadiths Talking to to Muslims, but most most of it is from their sources

That's where we're at. You know, I I'm always looking to go and so, you know One of the things that I would like to dig into is so we gave an overview of Islam.

I want to dig into your ministry what you do, how do you train churches because this is

I think an Important thing for you in the audience listening that I want to encourage you with I want my my hope in this episode is either that someone reaches out to James and we're gonna give you a way to do that and if you

Go, hey, wait, I don't know how to spell that Word that he used for the initiative.

He's gonna give you a easier website in a moment, but my hope is that one of you listening is gonna feel burdened to reach the

Muslims in your neighborhood and so when we come back from this break what I'd like to be able to do is

I Want James to explain a little bit of ways that either his ministry can help you or How what you could do to be able to reach

Muslims in your neighborhood because this is really the thing folks

Many people complain when we have Muslim immigrants moving in and I did an episode many many years ago when

I first started this podcast I think it was like episode one or two way back when where I made a case for people who are upset with so many

Muslim immigrants that were coming to America and I made the case in that episode to say we should be

Evangelizing them not getting upset with them. I mean God is bringing them here. You know how

I know that because they're here That's how I know God is bringing them here. That's God's will because it happened and so Instead of complaining because we have a favoritism of our country

America We should be looking at and saying, you know, they they come to America. They stay within their own community

What can we do to since they're here to help them hear about Christianity, which they would never hear elsewhere

So we're gonna come back to that right after this break You know, one of the things we were talking about with Islam is the fact that they have a hospitality culture and One thing that you could do is well invite them over for a good cup of coffee

Because well who doesn't like coffee? Well, okay the Mormons, but if you make it cold, then it's okay because they just don't have hot coffee but the reality is you can invite that your

Muslim neighbors or friends over you can come and Have a cup of coffee with them

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You know folks one of the things I always find interesting is that when you do speak to Muslims the way

Muslims view other Muslims and the way Christians view other Christians is kind of Well different you see a

Muslim will hire other Muslims and pay them more and They will if they're working for another

Muslim They work even harder because they think they're taking care of one of their own where you know what Christians do they go?

Oh, you're a fellow brother in Christ. You should give me a discount and then if you're the guy working It's like well,

I don't have to do good work because he's gonna be forgiving No We should actually be more like the

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And they might continue sponsoring us and we thank them for that With that let's get back to you how you as those in the audience might be able to reach out to Muslims in your community

Maybe you're too old to go in to the local college and go to the Muslims Student Association and you know

Break in there and you could just go if it's a public college and they have open

Open meetings. Maybe that's a way of doing it. But for folks

James that Don't know where the Muslims are in their community How how could they find

Muslims in their community? what are some ideas that they could do to reach out to the Muslims and How could your ministry help them to do that?

And and with that what are some resources that you could think of that would help them to learn about Islam?

Yeah, so There's several ways you could kind of go meet Muslims and it kind of depends on where exactly you live, of course, but On the sort of like larger scale of things one thing

That's a really good Avenue to meet Muslims through would be say cultural events. So For example in Seattle, there is a

Seattle Arab festival. This is a Seattle Persian festival There's Seattle Turkish festival like those are great avenues on a slightly smaller scale

You could look for say music shows or stand -up comedy events and stuff so one of the best settings

I ever experienced for this was a comedy group in Astoria in like New York where there was a comedy group called the

Muslim otherhood If I was in New York City, I'd be going there every single show to kind of hang out and meet people there but on a smaller scale

What you should be looking for would be Halal restaurants that serve like Middle Eastern food and stuff

You could be looking and looking for kind of coffee places which are open late so generally

Muslims don't like to hang out in bars, but food establishments which are open later than everywhere else tends to have

Muslims there why because the culture tends to involve staying up really late and talking about things and if there's any

Individual Christians or churches are interested in this on our YouTube channel, which you can find on our website

Which is al -maida org or more simply Muslims and jesus .com

There's a whole series called al -maida Academy, which you can train you in this, but we also work directly with churches

We'll travel we'll come to you. We'll help you Understand Islam as a worldview.

We'll help you meet your Muslim neighbors so The resources go into your website

Some places they could go What are some things folks could do?

You Know in order to So they invite someone to their house

You know, what would that would be good approach on what they could do to You know have

Good relations, you know questions they could ask what ways to to start conversations and and further them along so So I would say

I would focus on being friendly honest and curious So essentially

And this is the same with Judaism as well That you talk to ten different people you're gonna get ten different versions of what the religion is

So you do not want to go into a conversation with a script assuming, you know who you're talking to So what that means is you need to understand who exactly you're talking to first So just try and figure out how exactly the person in front of you thinks about the world like, okay

So you're you're Muslim. What does that mean to you? Does that mean you're reading the Quran every day?

Does that mean you're doing like the five daily prayers? Oh What exactly does it mean to you to be

Muslim And then just sort of like, you know compare notes. Oh, that's interesting because it's this is how we approach prayerist

Christians I'm just gonna have those things and just kind of keep asking more and more questions Then asked oh you have kids

I have kids what do you do when your kids are acting this way so there's also just any kind of Life questions of how that theology and their worldview impacts the way they live a really good starting points

But James that sounds like that's gonna take a lot of time and and I don't have time.

I'm so busy I mean, I got kids soccer and I got you know, the TV shows. I gotta watch it

I mean What do you how would you respond to someone that? Feels that that's a big time commitment

Yeah, it can be a big time commitment But this doesn't need to be something that's happening all within the course of a week

Think of this as a marathon not a sprint like you should be at your kids soccer games within reason

Yeah, I want you to enjoy the TV shows that you enjoy. I need to watch

TV, too It's the like one thing that keeps me Grounded and like a regular person able to have regular conversations with regular people.

All right, it's You should still be you but This is something that God has given us as as a mission

So think about ways to build margin in your life where these things can happen because ultimately

It's good for you and it's good for everyone around you as well Because this will bring a whole layer of Magic and excitement to your life as it has for me.

I this this This has taken me to Istanbul. It's taken me to Saudi Arabia, it's even taking me to officiate a wedding in Guadalajara Like when you start investing in the people around you you have no idea

Where these things gonna take you so I don't want you to feel like this is a chore I want you to be having as much fun as I am because I'm having a blast doing this

But this is what discipleship is folks It's not something you do Just a lot of people that do evangelism have the idea like they just go they go out they evangelize

They don't do any discipleship. They just sow seeds leave it out there go out preach on the street and then if someone gets saved they get saved there's no follow -up and We're not called to do that.

We're actually called to make disciples. Some of those disciples are gonna take a lot longer And especially if they're coming from another belief system

That is ingrained in them that they cannot question and you want them to question it

You know James the the book that I that I wrote what do they believe it actually started like I said as a as a

Bible study and so because it was it was started as a

Sunday school and What Was interesting was and I didn't expect this

But there's a missionary who works in the Middle East. He couldn't tell me where he was

And if you look in the back of my book, it's not actually his real name I actually the first printing of the book.

We put his real name in the quote that we had for him He said he can't do that. Like he because he keeps them separate like, you know, and so he would take this

Bible study and And He said it was the best evangelism tool he had because what do you do is he'd start on the chapter on Islam?

He would tell people would you like to just study world religions? the American religions because they knew he was

American and They'd be like, yeah, it seems like it's it's not Evangelizing which would be illegal in that country.

It's just learning religion he said he always started on the third chapter, which was Islam and the reason he did it was because What I tried to do and what

I encourage people to do is you encourage people to do is to know what someone actually believes so right the the book just goes through what the

Quran teaches and so Muslims will say whether Whichever sect they're from they agree in the same

Quran and so I that's why I don't get into Hadith But he said they would always be like wow, this is accurate.

And so they trusted it. He go Hey, you want to understand Judaism and especially in the Middle East world not

Middle East of the UK but the Middle East they would then be curious of Judaism because there's such a division with them and Judaism so they had the curiosity and Then he'd he'd say well, you know, there's other sects of Christianity and he'd then go into the chapter on You know

Roman Catholicism Witnesses or Mormons to witnesses then he'd get to the last chapter on Christianity.

And one of things he would do is go Islam Faith plus works Judaism faith plus works

Catholicism faith plus works Mormonism Jehovah Witness faith plus works Christianity faith alone

And he said by that time they have spent several months together Going through the different passages in the

Quran in the Bible in in Talmud, whichever to to study it and It was time -consuming but he ended up saying that it was really helpful because he started with them seeing that it wasn't a misrepresentation of what they believe and because that they then are curious of the others and The reason

I'm saying that folks is because what you're hearing James say and I want to emphasize this is

The fact that we want to be very careful not to misrepresent others I'll just tell you

When and you probably had this James When I had I'll give it give it in a in a real case scenario.

I'm in New York City I'm doing some open -air evangelism with friends. I'm not doing the open -air, but someone else was and He just I hear him say well my friend

Andrew over there will be happy to talk to you Andrew raise your hand I have no idea why I'm raising my hand.

I raised my hand and a Family a Muslim family comes over to me Okay, father the mother their adult children the wives so six of them and the father

Insists he's a he was a PhD professor at a university and he he insists he understands

Christianity because he talks to the Christian the Christians at at the University and Yet he's telling me we believe in three gods

Now I'm there with a bunch of Christians and I did like I'm just in there Hey Peter come here to find the

Trinity and they're like one God three persons. Okay. Hey Joe Come here to find the

Trinity, you know and one after another now, I will admit James I made one mistake one thing it didn't backfire

But afterwards I was like that was not the wisest thing to do is I went hey Isha. Come here.

What's the Trinity and You probably picked up what I what I did wrong, but right from her name.

They probably they could have picked up. Oh, she's Muslim She was Muslim and she converted that could have been really bad

But but what did I do I I basically called out a whole bunch of Christians after six or seven

He's like I get the point You know I said, but he's misrepresenting Christianity to me now

James if someone does that with you, are you gonna put faith in what they say about Christianity when they misrepresent it?

Right. Absolutely. Not. Yeah, and so if we want to accurately Understand and communicate

Christianity as someone and why we would disagree with Islam What James is saying is we need to be fair with what they believe

Don't just run in and say what you heard on the news or from some Christian saying what

Muslims believe because I don't know if you had this experience James when I started studying Islam, I Couldn't find in the

Quran I Couldn't even find in some of the Hadiths Right Well Islam is kind of notoriously hard to study because even their own scholarly material

Doesn't do citations very well So trying to like find something that is widely agreed upon a

Lot of the scholars just don't do it some some do it but lots don't so doing source work in Islam is

Difficult, but it's really really important Yeah, and and There are

I mean is why? When I when I didn't you know wrote my book it was it was hard It well, you know, it's not

I know Muslims will tell you that The Quran is like them the most beautiful book ever written, especially if you read it in Arabic and I've heard it sung

Um, I wasn't that impressed but it is a hard book to read and It it takes a some diligence to really kind of get a good handle on when

I when I wrote my chapter on Islam I went to a couple different imams and asked them

To proof it to and I did that with each of the religions so that I Wanted to make sure

I wasn't misrepresenting them And and that's a I think a good thing and a fair thing to do but if you're talking to you got someone in your house as James said don't assume that even if you you read my book on Islam that that's what they believe

Right they may not as As James said, I mean that was kind of new for me is how far drift

American Islam Muslims are moving from what Islam historically is taught what when we're interacting with Muslims One thing

I'm trying to encourage everyone to do is never to straw man what people believe but to steal man

What people believe instead? So don't simply repeat arguments that make sense to you

Try and understand how people are gonna respond to these Arguments and account for that as you're as you're making them

Because my goal is if ever I'm talking about Islam I want to describe Islam in a way that when a

Muslim hears it they say oh wow you described that so well and Then that's what

I'm gonna state my disagreement with it. So How how do you help churches so Individuals can go to your website get some training from there, but What kind of resources do you have for churches?

How can? Churches get involved with the ministry you're doing so that you can have an impact on different local churches so basically our goal as a ministry is not to build a giant pyramid of Muslim ministry under us, but our

Goal is to help Interacting with Muslims become the normal part of DNA for the average

American Church Islam is the largest non -christian worldview on the planet With that considered

Christians are not nearly equipped enough to be able to deal with Islam So what we do on a kind of basic level is

We'll go into a church and we'll write a kind of a basic training which is kind of three hours The first half of that is what is

Islam? How does the average Muslim relate to it? And the second half of that is how to meet

Muslims how to have meaningful conversations with Muslims How to welcome them into the life of the church and then on our team we have people from Turkey Afghanistan Pakistan our team speaks

Arabic Urdu Pashto Dari Persian Turkish and We are ready

To support you in whatever issues come up as you're trying to reach people and that's gonna look like very different things

Maybe it's helping someone figure out how to get a visa. Maybe it's helping someone escape from a refugee camp in Afghanistan we've we've kind of done a little bit of everything and for the most part

You'd be amazed at how well equipped you already are to answer the questions that Muslims are really asking and We just want to give you encouragement to do that then if you get stuck we're here for you

So Again for folks James give the website and Some of the resources that you provide because even though they might have heard it now that they're

I hope Seeing more of a need for them to make this part of their regular Christian life that they they would jot this down and Reach out to you guys so You can find us by the website

Muslims and Jesus comm on our website You can find something called al -maida

Academy Which is the sort of basic some of the basic teaching we go through of helping Christians to understand

Islam from the perspective of Muslims and how to interact meaningfully also from there you can find our

YouTube channel where we have another series called ask al -maida, which is a series of Sort of short videos answering questions

Muslims ask us and we also have a couple of podcasts. We have the al -maida initiative podcast

Boring name I know but then we have another one called Christ caliphate So the al -maida initiative podcast is me talking directly to Muslims Because I'm hoping to kind of model the kind of conversations

I want to be out there in the world and then Christ and caliphate is me and two former Muslims talking about World events and timeless principles that are happening in the

Middle East Well James I want to thank you for coming on I hope that this was helpful for you the audience to learn a little bit more about Islam and I hope that you have a little bit more of a burden for people who

Really live in kind of a bubble From Christianity even here in America many

Muslims just like many Orthodox Jewish people stick to their own people in the sense where They will not interact sometimes with anyone that isn't

Muslim People they they are friends with people they work with that a lot of times even here in America You might have people

I know it in the in the Orthodox Jewish community There there are people who may never really speak to Have real meaningful conversations with anyone that is not

Orthodox Jewish and and the same with some Muslim they may work with non Muslims But they're just talking work.

They're not having meaningful conversations because well You're not always able to do that on a job site.

So this is something we have to be proactive at as Christians we don't have to go all around the world to make disciples.

The world is coming to the United States Take advantage of that So go to Muslims in Jesus calm

James I want to thank you for coming on any any last words you have anything you want to talk about before you sign off Yeah, I would say in the cultural moment we're in now and the time and place we're in now

It's very easy to kind of get sucked into the politics of things and forget the individuals right in front of you so you may be somebody right now who is freaked out by the amount of immigration and the amount of Muslims in the u .s.

And how much prominence they seem to be getting and You can have your political views you can vote

However, you think you should vote to your conscience, but what the government's job to do here and what your job to do here is different your job is unconditionally to love your neighbors to speak the truth to your neighbors and Take the opportunity

God has given you to engage people with the truth and love and I really believe that if this country is

Going to turn around in a good direction. It's gonna come through this it's gonna come with the people of God taking the message of God to the people don't know him and through that amazing things could happen not just the reclaiming of our own country, but The transformation of the

Muslim world as well. So please join the adventure trust God speak the truth and see where he takes you

So folks with that I want to encourage you to go go check this out learn more and and Look for ways pray for ways that God can put you

In the path where you will meet some Muslims and start trying to reach them Because you never know what

God is gonna do through your life on someone who Never thought they would speak to a

Christian and understand what Christianity is and maybe Like James said with this woman who came to church maybe they'll get saved and Maybe you'll be discipling them and teaching them what

Christianity is all about something to think about something to pursue

I Hope that this has been encouraging to you and you know this hopefully is something that you will take and pray about So consider doing that and with that That's a wrap

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